Additional fuse holder in an overcrowded engine bay

Additional fuse holder in an overcrowded engine bay

Postby peterdeg on Sun Feb 12, 2012 1:09 pm

(I couldn't find a thread I thought suitable to append this too, if there is one, happy to move it)

So I have various things that I have or will be installing that I want to run of the 2nd battery (laptop, inverter (not for laptop), fridge, work lights) and a few I want to run off the main battery (reversing camera, engine temp sensor)

With the 2nd battery in the engine bay, there's no space to install a fuse block, but I found a way (albeit a little unusual)

I created a platform above the 2nd battery using perspex. It's held in place using the battery holder bolts (2 nuts and washers on each to clamp the perspex) and a bracket bolted at the back of the engine bay using an existing bolt.
Click to view larger picture

I then bolted the fuse block, circuit breaker and fused relays to the platform.
The fuse block is connected to the 2nd battery using 4GA cable and a 60A circuit breaker. I figure I'm never going to need the full 100A capability of the fuse block.
The two fused relays are for accessories powered by the main battery. The relay is triggered by power from the accessory circuit (I actually ran a cable from the back of the cigarette socket for this)

This has been in and working fine for about six weeks. Today I changed all the output leads to go through two plugs (20A), so that if I need to get to the battery, I can easily remove the whole platform - Trip the circuit breaker, disconnect the plugs, loosen the nut nearest the wheel arch, remove the nut nearest the engine, remove the bolt under the windscreen, unbolt the cable at the battery. About a 5 minute job.
Click to view larger picture

Lessons learned.
  • Don't by cheap circuit breakers from eBay. They trip ok but when you push the lever to reset it, it will snap off (on the original and the replacement)
  • Cheap relay sockets bought from China will not use a consistent colour scheme for their cabling. Three relay holders, three different layouts.
  • After you've crimped the connectors and put them in the plug, about half will fall out because you haven't crimped them tightly enough. :oops:
  • Installers cut corners wherever they can. The circuit breakers screwed to the back of the engine bay don't have covers. The first time I did up the nuts on the battery holder, the end of spanner touched one of them. :o Hence the electricians tape over them
Peter
2011 MN GLX-R manual.
Some pics here.
Build thread here.

4WD History: 2004 NP GLS Pajero DiD. 2002 Freelander Td4. 1996 Subaru DL wagon. Learnt in a 1980 F100.
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Additional fuse holder in an overcrowded engine bay

Postby dan.batto on Sun Feb 12, 2012 1:51 pm

Great idea mate! I have been wondering what to do about where I can mount everything! Even though mine is sorted now! Will help with others doing the same!!!
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Re: Additional fuse holder in an overcrowded engine bay

Postby peterdeg on Sun Feb 12, 2012 2:01 pm

One other lesson learned. Drill perspex SLOWLY AND GENTLY. That platform was the 2nd one after I splintered a few holes.
Peter
2011 MN GLX-R manual.
Some pics here.
Build thread here.

4WD History: 2004 NP GLS Pajero DiD. 2002 Freelander Td4. 1996 Subaru DL wagon. Learnt in a 1980 F100.
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Re: Additional fuse holder in an overcrowded engine bay

Postby Cowboy Dave on Sun Feb 12, 2012 2:07 pm

Looks good - my only comment would be about the relays. There was an incident at one point where someone lost power to something vital (brakes? ASC? can't recall now, it was ages ago) because someone had moved a relay and installed it the wrong way up. The result was that it couldn't drain and could collect water and corrode. Query whether the horizontal positions of your relays there could cause a similar issue?

Looks like they're nicely sealed up but something to think about.

I bought some of the galvanised metal bracket stuff that you used to hold the perspex and attached it to the side of the battery near the big fuse box. I used an angled piece that clamps onto the top/side of the battery with the pressure from the angled component of the battery clamp. Stole the idea off one of the 4wd action guys from one of their articles. Then screwed stuff on the vertical piece along the side of the battery. Not enough room for a big block like you've used but plenty for 5 or 6 self resetting circuit breakers and a relay or two.
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Re: Additional fuse holder in an overcrowded engine bay

Postby peterdeg on Sun Feb 12, 2012 3:00 pm

Cowboy Dave wrote:Looks like they're nicely sealed up but something to think about.


Well, it's all a bit of an experiment, so I'll keep an eye on it.
If these relays go, it'll only be reversing cameras and additional engine temp sensor (still to be installed) that'll fail.

thanks.
Peter
2011 MN GLX-R manual.
Some pics here.
Build thread here.

4WD History: 2004 NP GLS Pajero DiD. 2002 Freelander Td4. 1996 Subaru DL wagon. Learnt in a 1980 F100.
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Additional fuse holder in an overcrowded engine bay

Postby dan.batto on Sun Feb 12, 2012 3:56 pm

peterdeg wrote:One other lesson learned. Drill perspex SLOWLY AND GENTLY. That platform was the 2nd one after I splintered a few holes.


Believe it or not a blunt drill bit is better than a sharp one! It doesn't have the sharp edges that catch and break/splinter the Perspex!
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Re: Additional fuse holder in an overcrowded engine bay

Postby Mr Moe on Wed Jul 25, 2012 10:11 pm

Hello,

Quick-ish question, and hopefully simple, in relation to this fuse block setup. (bear with me, i'm quite a n00b with vehicle electrics, but once i learn something... i attempt to hold onto it...hehe)

I'm looking at going down the track of adding a fuse block for all the extras I plan to put in my triton as funds see fit... and tax time round the corner.... But i have a few questions to help me get my head around the parts for the installs, which i haven't found the right mix of terms when searching to find out so far.

1) Is the circuit breaker really necessary? Isn't that the purpose of the fuses, to have them trip if there is a fault on one of the circuits?

Or is the purpose of the circuit breaker to provide an extra isolation point, instead of individually removing each fuse in the block to isolate the circuits, in which case wouldn't one of those big red key switches do the same job perhaps?

2) How do you come up with the amp rated circuit breaker switch required? I've seen a few installs now with the searching i have done, and everyone has used different sized amp circuit breakers. My initial thoughts were, its a 100amp fuse block, you use a 100amp circuit breaker... is this thinking right or wrong...or half of each...hehe

3) There's no right and wrong way with earthing is there? i don't like the idea of the earth and positive cables in the one fuse block, too close and dangerous for my clumsy ways. Usually i crimp a ring connector onto the wire and use one of the earth bolts in the car already.

This does get annoying with many earth's that happen as each install comes along, my thoughts to combat this, get a flat piece of copper, bolt one end via an earthed screw, and then attach my earths to the other end of that copper bar... an earthed/grounded busbar so to speak... would this be a good or bad thought?

4) Again, i've searched and read lots of different info in regards to what gauge cable one should use to run to the fuse block, they range from 4 to 6 and i've also read that the Battery positive needs to be 8??? Any chance someone could ease my thoughts and provide an opinion on the gauge one should use?

Wow... doesn't take long to make my post an essay... Better stop there... otherwise i'll be "that guy" :roll:

thanks for reading...if you managed to make it this far?
Mr Moe
 

Re: Additional fuse holder in an overcrowded engine bay

Postby srb on Thu Jul 26, 2012 12:05 am

Mr Moe wrote:Hello,

Quick-ish question, and hopefully simple, in relation to this fuse block setup. (bear with me, i'm quite a n00b with vehicle electrics, but once i learn something... i attempt to hold onto it...hehe)

I'm looking at going down the track of adding a fuse block for all the extras I plan to put in my triton as funds see fit... and tax time round the corner.... But i have a few questions to help me get my head around the parts for the installs, which i haven't found the right mix of terms when searching to find out so far.

1) Is the circuit breaker really necessary? Isn't that the purpose of the fuses, to have them trip if there is a fault on one of the circuits?

Or is the purpose of the circuit breaker to provide an extra isolation point, instead of individually removing each fuse in the block to isolate the circuits, in which case wouldn't one of those big red key switches do the same job perhaps?

2) How do you come up with the amp rated circuit breaker switch required? I've seen a few installs now with the searching i have done, and everyone has used different sized amp circuit breakers. My initial thoughts were, its a 100amp fuse block, you use a 100amp circuit breaker... is this thinking right or wrong...or half of each...hehe

3) There's no right and wrong way with earthing is there? i don't like the idea of the earth and positive cables in the one fuse block, too close and dangerous for my clumsy ways. Usually i crimp a ring connector onto the wire and use one of the earth bolts in the car already.

This does get annoying with many earth's that happen as each install comes along, my thoughts to combat this, get a flat piece of copper, bolt one end via an earthed screw, and then attach my earths to the other end of that copper bar... an earthed/grounded busbar so to speak... would this be a good or bad thought?

4) Again, i've searched and read lots of different info in regards to what gauge cable one should use to run to the fuse block, they range from 4 to 6 and i've also read that the Battery positive needs to be 8??? Any chance someone could ease my thoughts and provide an opinion on the gauge one should use?

Wow... doesn't take long to make my post an essay... Better stop there... otherwise i'll be "that guy" :roll:

thanks for reading...if you managed to make it this far?


G-day Moe,

I'll answer your questions in order...

1. No real need for a circuit breaker if your mounting your fuse block close to your battery in the engine bay, circuit breaker is only necessary if you need to protect a large cable run down to a second battery mounted in your tray or camper trailer.

2. Your cable size (cross sectional area) is the decider in choosing a suitable rated circuit breaker or fuse. First you need to find out how much current (Amp's) that the cable can safely carry. No good putting a 100amp fuse or breaker on a cable that is only good for 20amps, In a fault or overload you will melt the cable before the fuse has a chance to blow. :o

3. Earthing or grounding of cables in auto setup's is very important! Make sure you have a good earth by removing paint from the metal where you plan on making an earth point and then paint to seal it after. Personally I like to run all my negatives back to a link strait off my battery, reason for this is that I know I will get the best connection that wont fail because sometimes you can get resistance in parts of your body panels or chassis that can lead to poor connections.

4. Cable size (gauge) needs to be worked out on how much load current (amps) will be flowing in that cable. Work out what you'll be suppling ie. Spot lights? Winch? Air compressor? What ever it may be... If it works out to be 60Amps then you need a cable capable of carrying this load, and remember if you plan on running long lengths of cable, say right from one end of the truck to the other then you may need to factor in a bit of voltage drop, this means you may have to upscale the cable a bit to carry the required current over that distance. Just google voltage drop on 12volt dc and Ohms law to calculate these. PLEASE NOTE... Choosing cable size and circuit protection is just as important in a 12volt system as in 240volt mains systems, car batteries have plenty of amps to cause fires! ;)
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Re: Additional fuse holder in an overcrowded engine bay

Postby peterdeg on Thu Jul 26, 2012 7:22 am

I used a 60A circuit breaker as that was the largest one I could find locally (tried 4 stores) and I was going away the weekend after installing and needed everything working. I actually wanted an 80A one.

To my way of thinking, the fuse box I used is rated to 100A. If you wired up 6 cables each pulling a max of 20A, that's a possible max of 120A. The breaker with a lower rating than the box would trip before the box is damaged (and possibly catches fire)
Peter
2011 MN GLX-R manual.
Some pics here.
Build thread here.

4WD History: 2004 NP GLS Pajero DiD. 2002 Freelander Td4. 1996 Subaru DL wagon. Learnt in a 1980 F100.
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Re: Additional fuse holder in an overcrowded engine bay

Postby srb on Thu Jul 26, 2012 7:40 am

Yeah thats fine having the rating of the breaker smaller than the max rated capacity of the supply cable. By looking at the gauge of cable you have suppling your fuse block you could go up to 100amp breaker if it was needed. ;)
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Re: Additional fuse holder in an overcrowded engine bay

Postby Mr Moe on Thu Jul 26, 2012 9:35 pm

hmmm... most of the searching i did had all the breakers in the engine bay, and where either single or dual battery setups, all housed in the engine bay too... would one take it as the installer just been cautious, and idiot proofing themselves from accidentally overloading the fuse block? Most fuse blocks state they are 100amp total, for the whole block.

So using the example above with banking out a block with 6 x 20amp feeds to give a total of 120amps, your straight up going against the max rating of the unit. So at the end of the day, it was the installers fault by not following the instructions/ratings.

But then again, seeing I was toying with the idea of a "kill-switch" option so I can turn the whole bank off for some strange reason, a 100amp isolator switch is pretty much the same cost as a 100amp circuit breaker...


Earthing, definitely agree. Plan was to make sure there was enough suitable "clean" surface where I plan to mount the copper strip, and looking at bolting in to the same spot as the main Battery Earth cable. If i can't find any suitable strip of copper sitting in the scrap heap at home... guess i'll just stick with the crimp option and put a ring piece on the end of each install, i see it working in my head, but quite often due to location of the extra's, there is quite often a closer and more suitable spot than my intended first thought.


Cable size... i'm thinking i'll go 4gauge and setup for the "maximum" load situation. The more and more i look around on this site, and the ideas i have and get. I have no idea as to how many things I may add at the end of the day, but all of the intended so far will run from the Engine bay.

No plans for a dual battery setup either at this stage, and all intended accessories are for "while the car is running" scenarios, with the only possibility of having an LED accessory light or a radio playing when the car isn't running, but not for long periods.


One thing i do know about running the power side of setups though... the fuse should always be the weakest link in the setup so it is the first item to trip in the case of a fault.


Thanks again for your extended help
Mr Moe
 

Re: Additional fuse holder in an overcrowded engine bay

Postby Snooozy on Thu Jul 26, 2012 9:49 pm

If you check my build thread (link in sig line) on page 4 there is some pics of my Blue Sea fuse panel.

I have a busbar fitted (pics on page 1) for both +ve & -ve. I can't stand having heaps of wires connected to battery terminals.

I would consider running a main breaker as close to the power source as possible for protection of the cable to the fuse panel, if the wire rubbed through or was cut it would protect the car.
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Re: Additional fuse holder in an overcrowded engine bay

Postby Mr Moe on Thu Jul 26, 2012 10:58 pm

cheers,

I did stumble across your build and it gave me some ideas too, i thought about the busbar option too, but with my luck, would probably accidentally do damage when i drop something across the 2 bars. So i think i'd only do a busbar setup with the negative run, and leave the positive safely covered up in a proper case (Fuse Block in my case)


I really like the circuit breaker style in this post, but so far i have only found this style on ebay, and from the US from my initial searches. I really like the way the cable gets terminated in the actual unit. Otherwise my other option to source local, and for me, local is an hour drive to Adelaide, is the style like you have in your post which i would get from jaycar. I am a big fan of online buying too due to my location and limited places to go for this style of gear. (At this stage most of my parts are going to be ebay purchases, but will first be doing a city run once tax time money has found my pocket and I have completed my list)

Once i have the pieces, its then the playing game to find a location as close to the battery as i can. At this stage, my thoughts are mounting it to the plastic housing around the battery, which is the back side nearest to the firewall, is a very tempting spot of real-estate asking for something to get bolted too it...

Cheers
Mr Moe
 

Re: Additional fuse holder in an overcrowded engine bay

Postby Snooozy on Fri Jul 27, 2012 7:38 am

I purchased most of my bits from The 12 Shop. they have online store available.

They are a bit more expensive but have good quality parts. The Blue Sea range is made for marine environments & are very good.
Be wary of the quality of the eBay stock.

I have the plastic cover over the Busbars & it would be very difficult to short them accidentally

There is also a Blue Sea fuse panel that contains a -ve Busbar within the unit

You can also get breakers from Boycee in Adelaide viewtopic.php?f=81&t=10445
He will look after you ;)

https://www.12volt.com.au/MainFrame.html

Adelaide store
http://www.homeof12volt.com.au/
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Additional fuse holder in an overcrowded engine bay

Postby viking shippy on Fri Jul 27, 2012 8:47 am

ImageUploadedByTapatalk1343346215.029319.jpg
if you don't have a second battery this might be a solution ,from blue sea systems this fuse block has a main feed from battery and 3xmax 60amp and 4xmax 30amp fuse terminals water proof also
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Re: Additional fuse holder in an overcrowded engine bay

Postby Mr Moe on Sat Jul 28, 2012 11:16 pm

Cheers,

Thanks for the info guys, very helpful.

Now to start/add to the shopping list and find time to spend a day in the city to go spend some tax money when i get some hopefully back...

Also stumbled across these 3 online stores in Australia that seem to stock the incline circuit breaker i like;
http://www.astsales.com/
http://www.killerindustries.com.au/
http://www.frankiesautoelectrics.com.au/

Just need to do some search to see what kind of "cred" they might have, seeing i've never dealt/heard of them.

Otherwise if the regular business guys on here have what I'm after, would definitely prefer to support them.

Thanks again.
Mr Moe
 


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