3.2 falling over on dyno

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3.2 falling over on dyno

Postby Outlaw200 on Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:58 pm

ok peoples,
my ml has a few mods. to4 turbo, evo9 intercooler and hard piping, strait through 3'' with single muffle no cat. a hks f-con id for controlling fuel. today on the dyno its went 143kw and 640nm at 2200 rpm with 17-1 on 32's and fallen over. like hitting a wall. turner is pretty confident that at least 1 injector or (possible more) is leaking off? car has done 201oooklm does this sound right? i know at this age it's expected.
if i was 100% certain it's injectors i'd order 4 new +30s and be done with it.
basically don't want to pay for injectors to find out its a pump failure.
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Re: 3.2 falling over on dyno

Postby ag9111 on Tue Oct 10, 2017 7:19 pm

Pressure limiter on the fuel rail is probably falling over
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Re: 3.2 falling over on dyno

Postby Outlaw200 on Tue Oct 10, 2017 7:36 pm

no defiantly not the limiter, first thing we looked at. its been bricked
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Re: 3.2 falling over on dyno

Postby borngeek on Tue Oct 10, 2017 8:56 pm

What % you pushing the pump up? It maybe be unable to keep up...

Is possible injectors but I doubt it.

Those are reasonable numbers without injection duration and timing btw.

//there is a way to take strain off injection pump which is a lift pump with a mini pre delivery tank and regulator (with constant return) - I have to check but as little as 5psi to the pump makes it a lot happier than pulling all the way back from the tank. (It has to keep a certain pressure there and returns constantly (cycles to and fro)
I try and find a picture of what I mean...
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Re: 3.2 falling over on dyno

Postby NowForThe5th on Tue Oct 10, 2017 8:57 pm

Something like that should have generated an error code. What was it?
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Re: 3.2 falling over on dyno

Postby Outlaw200 on Tue Oct 10, 2017 9:15 pm

borngeek wrote:What % you pushing the pump up? It maybe be unable to keep up...

Is possible injectors but I doubt it.

Those are reasonable numbers without injection duration and timing btw.

//there is a way to take strain off injection pump which is a lift pump with a mini pre delivery tank and regulator (with constant return) - I have to check but as little as 5psi to the pump makes it a lot happier than pulling all the way back from the tank. (It has to keep a certain pressure there and returns constantly (cycles to and fro)
I try and find a picture of what I mean...


Cheers borngeek, I thought the hks did injector timing, rail and duration? Well I was told it did when I purchased it.
When u say pushing the pump up, your referring to rail pressure?
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Re: 3.2 falling over on dyno

Postby Outlaw200 on Tue Oct 10, 2017 9:16 pm

NowForThe5th wrote:Something like that should have generated an error code. What was it?

There's a few, mass air, over boost
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Re: 3.2 falling over on dyno

Postby Outlaw200 on Tue Oct 10, 2017 9:22 pm

A failing injector(s) would be a slow ramp down on power? Not a sudden drop off?
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Re: 3.2 falling over on dyno

Postby NowForThe5th on Tue Oct 10, 2017 9:44 pm

Depends on how the injector failed. But, I'm inclined to think that a sudden shut down is more likely something initiated by the ECU (other than mechanical damage, of course, but that would be obvious).

Have a look at each of the error codes and consider how you're managing the extremes that they're going to be reading. Geek can tell you how he managed MAF on his but there are ways of controlling what the ECU sees from things like overboost (which was/is a fairly common problem).
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Re: 3.2 falling over on dyno

Postby Outlaw200 on Tue Oct 10, 2017 10:02 pm

Yes the hks sorts all them issues, that's not the concern.
the question is why is it losing/dumping all its rail pressure so quickly?
And yes geeks been a tremendous help with all the pm's being sent back fourth
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Re: 3.2 falling over on dyno

Postby catchya on Wed Oct 11, 2017 8:02 am

Am i missing something....Been a bit doughy lately.

You say the HKS sorts out the few error codes mass air, overboost etc being generated but its still shutting down?

Sounds like it isn't. If it is what are the OBD2 codes being generated on shutdown.

If there is a P0139 being generated and the other codes are sorted, money is on a leaking injector which will shut you down.

Great numbers by the way. Got a dyno printout. Lift pump a given, an egt controlled water/meth to help control all that heat.

Keen for further results
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Re: 3.2 falling over on dyno

Postby Outlaw200 on Wed Oct 11, 2017 8:38 am

catchya wrote:Am i missing something....Been a bit doughy lately.

You say the HKS sorts out the few error codes mass air, overboost etc being generated but its still shutting down?

Sounds like it isn't. If it is what are the OBD2 codes being generated on shutdown.

If there is a P0139 being generated and the other codes are sorted, money is on a leaking injector which will shut you down.

Great numbers by the way. Got a dyno printout. Lift pump a given, an egt controlled water/meth to help control all that heat.

Keen for further results


Yes it controls the map and maf faults. Large pressure drop is what's coming up now.
My rails only reaching 3.15v then loses pressure, this means nothing to me. Just what tuner said?
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Re: 3.2 falling over on dyno

Postby borngeek on Wed Oct 11, 2017 8:50 am

I think the hks does both yes, which would explain those numbers, rail pressure alone can’t do that.
I am asking about what % extra rail pressure you running?
Do not at all go near 40% it will split the head of the pump.
You will need to log the rail (mut3 can do) to see if there is a pressure drop. If so you will either need to do a lift pump configuration or get a pump that is blueprinted and has had the cams lifted/changed in it.
Or both if you want to go wild.

I think you’ve just hit the upper limits of the injection system.

Are you watching EGT and AFR?
What temps and afr at full boost?

Also you can just brick the wastegate full boost and control the boost with fuel. Not need a manual boost control then - but is up to your tuner wants to do that.

I would keep the rail as low as you can and bring more fuel in using injection duration personally but each tuner has his own way. The injectors do leak back but be unusual for the flat spot. Plus be all over the shop generally throughout the rev range on the dyno if a nozzle was blocked and rattle too. But they’re definitely old.

You may need bigger nozzles (what I call modify1 or2) on new or reconditioned injectors.

//You started at mild power increases
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Re: 3.2 falling over on dyno

Postby furious on Wed Oct 11, 2017 6:09 pm

what about the camshaft, on petrol motors the camshaft will creat the situation of sudden power drop off after a certain rpm.
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Re: 3.2 falling over on dyno

Postby gartam on Wed Oct 11, 2017 7:44 pm

I have an mq with a chip and i had it on the dyno and it was doing the same thing. It just seem to drop off bad at just over 3000rpm. It still pulled 133kw and 650nm at the wheels. On the road it doesn't do it. It pulls hard all the way to the redline.
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Re: 3.2 falling over on dyno

Postby RHKTriton on Wed Oct 11, 2017 8:50 pm

Is the ecu simply trying to preserve the motor?

It will know how much fuel and air are going in and with revs, etc, it'll calculate its about to blow up.
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Re: 3.2 falling over on dyno

Postby gartam on Thu Oct 12, 2017 9:58 am

I'm going to put mine on another dyno and see how it goes.
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Re: 3.2 falling over on dyno

Postby Outlaw200 on Thu Oct 12, 2017 8:39 pm

Well Iv rang a few diesel joints and most believe injectors. So Iv ordered 4 new ones, now should I go +30 nozzles?
BornGeek, not sure as he put a softer tune in it. Only drove it home and now back away at work.
Thinking I'll put a carter 8psi 100gph pump at the tank so the injection pump has positive pressure and not sucking past 2 filters
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3.2 falling over on dyno

Postby borngeek on Thu Oct 12, 2017 9:26 pm

As promised found pix of my lift pump prior to install.
SPVi jobby- looks sweet

I doubt injectors but at that age is worth changing anyways. If you want to push fuel yes bigger nozzles.

I am going to put in ones that are bored internally with larger plunger and machined Denso nozzles. Called modify 2

Click to view larger pictureClick to view larger pictureClick to view larger picture
Last edited by borngeek on Thu Oct 12, 2017 9:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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3.2 falling over on dyno

Postby borngeek on Thu Oct 12, 2017 9:32 pm

As you can see has a sub tank that keeps fuel as close to the pump as possible. That cycles and returns.
That is how to do it.
Need larger return line where it joins up with all the returns.
Keep everything as close to the injection pump as possible
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Re: 3.2 falling over on dyno

Postby L200Shogun on Fri Oct 13, 2017 2:20 pm

If you can't trust your Tuner. Me I would find a new one.

At 210k km probably time to put them on a flow bench any way.
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