Closing the EGR Valve *check first post for links*

Re: Closing the EGR Valve

Postby Tim007 on Fri May 18, 2012 7:36 am

tsenior wrote:
Tim007 wrote:
I have an ML running Chip it, 3" straight through, snorkel and EGR blank. I started playing around with the throttle body as it was playing havoc with my tune. The drive ability was not very smooth and the noise coming from the snorkel that was being fed back through the intercooler was too loud. Basically until the in opened 100% it was noisy and crap to drive. Once it opened and the throttle stayed about 25% it drove like a dream. That go me thinking so I disconnected the wiring harness to the throttle body and went for a drive. The truck drove awesome. Very smooth, spooling up quicker and the noise was gone. The problem was then the run on at shut down as the valve did not shut. I have since tried drilling holes in the valve which is much better but still a bit of run on. I would love to be able to trick the throttle body to stay open 100% all the time but to close when the ignition it turned off to make shut down smoother. If some one can help me achieve that I owe them a carton or two.


do you have your throttle body disconnected all the time?


No. I have drilled two holes in the butterfly valve that does help the problem but nothing like it being open 100% of the time which is what happens when the harness is off. The problems that causes though is you will throw a code (not a limp though) which is no drama but the shut down can be rough. A lot of mechanics call that valve an "anti-shudder valve" because that is what is stops by shutting off the air supply to the engine on shut down.
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Re: Closing the EGR Valve

Postby sierra on Fri May 18, 2012 10:29 am

Tim007 wrote:No. I have drilled two holes in the butterfly valve that does help the problem but nothing like it being open 100% of the time which is what happens when the harness is off. The problems that causes though is you will throw a code (not a limp though) which is no drama but the shut down can be rough. A lot of mechanics call that valve an "anti-shudder valve" because that is what is stops by shutting off the air supply to the engine on shut down.


I'm going to get an auto electrician to put a switch on the dash to turn off the throttle body servo, bottom 2 wires.
Then switch it off as soon as the engine check lights have gone out and switch it back on just before i turn it off.
That shouldn't give any codes and is the best current solution i can think of.
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Re: Closing the EGR Valve

Postby Tim007 on Fri May 18, 2012 11:05 am

sierra wrote:
Tim007 wrote:No. I have drilled two holes in the butterfly valve that does help the problem but nothing like it being open 100% of the time which is what happens when the harness is off. The problems that causes though is you will throw a code (not a limp though) which is no drama but the shut down can be rough. A lot of mechanics call that valve an "anti-shudder valve" because that is what is stops by shutting off the air supply to the engine on shut down.


I'm going to get an auto electrician to put a switch on the dash to turn off the throttle body servo, bottom 2 wires.
Then switch it off as soon as the engine check lights have gone out and switch it back on just before i turn it off.
That shouldn't give any codes and is the best current solution i can think of.

That is not a bad idea. It would be great if you could have it switched as part of the ignition so it happens automatically at shut down. Not sure how you can delay it at start up until the checks have been run. From memory I started mine with the harness off and didn't get a code until it I got to about full throttle. Wouldn't it throw a code as soon as you current stopped going back to the ecu. Maybe we need to work out what resister to place on the loom to trick the ecu to thinking the valve is still operating.
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Re: Closing the EGR Valve

Postby sierra on Fri May 18, 2012 11:54 am

I'm pretty sure that you can unplug the throttle body after the CEL's have gone out and it wont throw a code or show a CEL.
If it does then try waiting until the engine coolant has gone higher than the 55c - 58c range where it starts to operate and that should keep the ECU happy.
If that's the case then the switch will work just fine, others here have done it.
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Re: Closing the EGR Valve

Postby Tim007 on Fri May 18, 2012 2:22 pm

if there are only two wires that are running to the servo could they be linked to the ignition.
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Re: Closing the EGR Valve

Postby Tim007 on Fri May 18, 2012 2:39 pm

does anyone out there have the electrical plans for the ML throttle body??
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Re: Closing the EGR Valve

Postby coxy47 on Fri May 18, 2012 3:52 pm

Have a search for the workshop manual. I already went down that road and had issues with getting a rough shutdown as it didn't feactivate quick enough though I was triggering off the accessory circuit.

I think the best bet at this point in time for something like that would be to trigger off the handbrake. So throttle is only enabled if the handbrake is on.
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Re: Closing the EGR Valve

Postby coxy47 on Fri May 18, 2012 3:55 pm

sierra wrote:I'm pretty sure that you can unplug the throttle body after the CEL's have gone out and it wont throw a code or show a CEL.
If it does then try waiting until the engine coolant has gone higher than the 55c - 58c range where it starts to operate and that should keep the ECU happy.
If that's the case then the switch will work just fine, others here have done it.


Sierra I get codes regardless of the temp. If there's no pending code and no code in the system I get a new pending code. If there's already a pending code I get a cell. Granted I am disabling the throttle position sensor though. This because when I was disabling the servo I would get the rough shutdown even after reactivating it unless I cleared the code. With the tps I can just reactivate without clearing the code.
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Re: Closing the EGR Valve

Postby coxy47 on Fri May 18, 2012 3:55 pm

sierra wrote:I'm pretty sure that you can unplug the throttle body after the CEL's have gone out and it wont throw a code or show a CEL.
If it does then try waiting until the engine coolant has gone higher than the 55c - 58c range where it starts to operate and that should keep the ECU happy.
If that's the case then the switch will work just fine, others here have done it.


Sierra I get codes regardless of the temp. If there's no pending code and no code in the system I get a new pending code. If there's already a pending code I get a cell. Granted I am disabling the throttle position sensor though. This because when I was disabling the servo I would get the rough shutdown even after reactivating it unless I cleared the code. With the tps I can just reactivate without clearing the code.
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Re: Closing the EGR Valve

Postby sierra on Fri May 18, 2012 6:43 pm

coxy47 wrote:Sierra I get codes regardless of the temp. If there's no pending code and no code in the system I get a new pending code. If there's already a pending code I get a cell. Granted I am disabling the throttle position sensor though. This because when I was disabling the servo I would get the rough shutdown even after reactivating it unless I cleared the code. With the tps I can just reactivate without clearing the code.


I just had a switch installed to cut the servo. $80 installed, he did it so it can't be spotted apart from the rocker switch on the dash which has it on when it's in the off/up position.
He wanted to come for a test drive to see what happened. 90kph steady throttle 1.9psi, switch down and the TPS reading went from 20% to 99% while the boost went up to 5.8psi. Interestingly nothing else happened, the speed, not on cruise, stayed at 90kph.
He got me to turn it off and on again and the CEL came on.
I left it on until I dropped him back and paid and then cleared the code.
Although you can turn it off after starting and then turn it back on and it stays wide open at 99%, there's something else happening that's wrong. I could hear it at idle and shutting down.

After leaving I switched it off at idle and drove home with it wide open at 99% with no code. The boost was much higher, as expected and it was more responsive at light[0-25%] accelerator pedal. It also felt and sounded sweeter, quieter more ready to respond at cruising speeds.
The only downside was that it wont return the throttle body to normal operation if you switch it back on so the shutdown isn't so sweet but no big deal. Also the scangauge fuel consumption was reading much higher, same as it does up to 55c before the throttle body starts to work normally. I'm guessing those readings are wrong but will have to wait until I use a tank to find out.
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Re: Closing the EGR Valve

Postby coxy47 on Fri May 18, 2012 6:56 pm

Sorry mate. This is why I believe it's best to switch the tps rather then the servo as it will shutdown properly as soon as you have flicked the switch. It seems that the code generated, when disabling the servo,which is different from the one generated when disabling the tps(this is what is generated when pulling the throttle body plug), prevents it from actuation at all when the servo is disabled.

At least this is my experience.

The scan gauge readings will be out it seems to calculate the fuel usage off the MAP reading.
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Re: Closing the EGR Valve

Postby sierra on Fri May 18, 2012 7:40 pm

That's alright Coxy.
You mentioned getting codes switching the TPS and I get none as long as I switch the servo off and leave it alone.
The shut down on mine is very mild, just takes a couple of secs with no shaking.

The auto electrician was very interested and looked up a servo that he could use to delay the switch off until the ECU has finished it's checks, turn it off and then back on again. Now i know for the servo it would be the wrong way but it could simply turn it off after a delay and turn it back on at shut down to eliminate the switch but it still leaves the lumpy shut down.

How would that work if the TPS was used instead of the servo? Would it generate any codes or a CEL?
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Re: Closing the EGR Valve

Postby Tim007 on Fri May 18, 2012 7:47 pm

Guys. Excuse my ignorance but what is tps? I also noticed the fuel consumption has gone up since I drilled the holes in the valve. I dIsconnected the harness after starting tonight on the way home. Got a code but suspended it with the ultra gauge and no dramas on the way home. It drove awesome. Left it disconnected on shut down. A little rough and got a code again on start up. Did the same and all good. Having the valve open is definately the answer so we have to keep working on this. Any pics Sierra??
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Closing the EGR Valve

Postby Cowboy Dave on Fri May 18, 2012 8:02 pm

Throttle position sensor?
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Re: Closing the EGR Valve

Postby sierra on Fri May 18, 2012 8:44 pm

Tim007 wrote:Guys. Excuse my ignorance but what is tps? I also noticed the fuel consumption has gone up since I drilled the holes in the valve. I dIsconnected the harness after starting tonight on the way home. Got a code but suspended it with the ultra gauge and no dramas on the way home. It drove awesome. Left it disconnected on shut down. A little rough and got a code again on start up. Did the same and all good. Having the valve open is definately the answer so we have to keep working on this. Any pics Sierra??


I'm surprised you got a code after unplugging the throttle body. Was it the CEL, that's what i got but had to remove a code to clear it.
I'm pretty sure RHK Triton just left his unplugged for weeks and ignored the CEL?

It does drive a lot better doesn't it!
Has your fuel consumption actually increased or is it just the read out that's much higher?

The only thing to take a pic of is the rocker switch fitted into a switch blank on the dash. I made sure he intercepted the wire back near the firewall and slipped the new wires inside the harness shield for stealth.
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Re: Closing the EGR Valve

Postby coxy47 on Fri May 18, 2012 9:10 pm

The TPS does generate a code which is P0222 or something like that from memory. And subsequently a CEL. I have driven for weeks without clearing the code and ha e no adverse affects other then a slightly annoying CEL.

As long as the sensor is enabled before you turn off the engine it shuts down smoothly. Regardless of the code.

As for fuel economy I get around 1l/100km better over all with the throttle position sensor disable when driving. It is very effective. I just wouldn't recommend this method without a OBD II reader as it will generate codes.

I am going to look at going down the path of using a microprocessor to control the throttle while still tricking the ECU into thinking everything is fine. Not sure if it can be done though as it's somewhat beyond my expertise at the moment.

Don't get me wrong I still maintain Longrangers solution is the best overall that we have at this point in time.
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Re: Closing the EGR Valve

Postby Tim007 on Fri May 18, 2012 9:22 pm

What is long rangers solution? So Coxy are you using this solution now?
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Re: Closing the EGR Valve

Postby coxy47 on Fri May 18, 2012 9:30 pm

Longrangers solution is to plumb a clean supply of air from the intercooler transfer pipe to the egr pipe which let's the system operate completely normally while maintaining fresh air and near full boost pressure constantly with no rough shutdown.

Currently I have a switch in line with the TPS. It works for me for the moment. If I haven't got a better solution when my warranty runs out soon I'll be doing longrangers mod.
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Re: Closing the EGR Valve

Postby sierra on Fri May 18, 2012 10:01 pm

Which wire is the TPS?
If you turn it off after the engine is started and the checks are finished, does it still get the CEL?

Does the boost plumbed into the EGR valve give the full boost that having the throttle valve wide open gives?
I would like to add that I appreciate it's a very clever idea.

I would have thought it would be a compromise though, bearing in mind the small volume the EGR valve can flow and prefer to keep on in this direction because it gives the maximum benefit possible.
Just a few small details to nut out!!! :roll:
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Re: Closing the EGR Valve

Postby Tim007 on Sat May 19, 2012 7:32 am

Coxy do you have any pics so this can be replicated? How long after the switch is turned on does the sensor become active again for shut down? Does the valve move to open when you turn the switch on?
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Re: Closing the EGR Valve

Postby Tim007 on Sat May 19, 2012 7:33 am

Where' about north side are you Coxy? I am in Caloundra. It would be great to see what you have done.
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Re: Closing the EGR Valve

Postby coxy47 on Sat May 19, 2012 9:16 am

Tim007 wrote:Coxy do you have any pics so this can be replicated? How long after the switch is turned on does the sensor become active again for shut down? Does the valve move to open when you turn the switch on?


sierra wrote:Which wire is the TPS?
If you turn it off after the engine is started and the checks are finished, does it still get the CEL?

Does the boost plumbed into the EGR valve give the full boost that having the throttle valve wide open gives?
I would like to add that I appreciate it's a very clever idea.

I would have thought it would be a compromise though, bearing in mind the small volume the EGR valve can flow and prefer to keep on in this direction because it gives the maximum benefit possible.
Just a few small details to nut out!!! :roll:


Ill get some pics of it either today or tomorrow morning when i get a chance. Im pretty sure it was the black wire but cant remeber for certain as i did this mod over 6 months ago (pretty sure it was whichever wire is shared between the two Hall sensors.)

As for when it becomes reactivated i normally give it a couple of seconds to be safe but you can shut it down essentially immeadiatly.

When the circuit is disabled the sensor will read 0 for the TPS as far as the ecu is concerned. In reality however the throttle is 100% open as the throttle is spring loaded to return to the open position when no power is applied.

Heres a quick detailed guide of what happens.
1. disable the throttle wire.
2. the TPS will now read 0% and it will generate either a pending code of P0222 or a trouble code of P0222 (the trouble code results in a CEL).
3. If a CEL eventuates and you clear the code while the TPS is disabled the system will generate a new P0222 pending code after a period of time.
4. If you re-enable the TPS after having a code generated whether it be a pending code or a trouble code in this engine on-off period the TPS will become active and leave the throttle at 100% open.
5. If you then leave the code in the system so that the throttle remains 100% open, and then proceed to shutdown the engine, the throttle will close completely providing the smooth shutdown.

As far as i can tell the throttle remains 100% open when driving but will close on shutdown because of the P0222 code in the system. It must be a safeguard of the ECU.

Tim007 wrote:Where' about north side are you Coxy? I am in Caloundra. It would be great to see what you have done.


Im at Aspley mate.
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Re: Closing the EGR Valve

Postby sierra on Sat May 19, 2012 10:08 am

coxy47 wrote:As far as i can tell the throttle remains 100% open when driving but will close on shutdown because of the P0222 code in the system. It must be a safeguard of the ECU.


I just realised :idea: that your TPS reading is 0% and that's why you can only assume it's wide open.

I'm going to leave mine switching the servo to avoid codes and to keep it simple.
Start up, engine check lights out, switch the servo off and back on just before I turn it off, at idle. If it's a short local trip i wont bother because it stays wide open until 55c anyway.

There are 2 'easy' :roll: ways to fix this throttle body.

One is by intercepting the signal that's generated by the coolant temp reaching 55c so it never gets that message.
The other is by intercepting the accelerator pedal signal and making the TB think it's at fully closed[off or at idle]

Either one should result in the throttle body valve remaining wide open and then closing fully for shutdown.
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Re: Closing the EGR Valve

Postby coxy47 on Sat May 19, 2012 5:33 pm

I can guarantee you that its 100% open when the TPS is disabled ;) MAP radings confirm this.

sierra wrote:There are 2 'easy' :roll: ways to fix this throttle body.

One is by intercepting the signal that's generated by the coolant temp reaching 55c so it never gets that message.
The other is by intercepting the accelerator pedal signal and making the TB think it's at fully closed[off or at idle]

Either one should result in the throttle body valve remaining wide open and then closing fully for shutdown.


Its not going to be possible to disable the ecu from recognizing the coolant temp without disabling the coolant temp reading all together which i am strongly against doing incase damage to the radiator occurs.

The second method wont work either as the accelerator signal is read by the ecu then the ecu tells the throttle what to do. the only place you can modifiy the throttle signal (short of major ecu hacking) is prior to the ecu which would render it effectively useless.

I think if going for an electrical solution tseniors method of using an arduino processor is the way to go. I had a chat to my girlfriends dad about it this morning as hes an electrical engineer and im pretty confident it would be relatively easy to implement.

The way to do it is to use the arduino to read the signal to the servo and use this to output the signal of the correct throttle position sensor to the ecu and output a separate signal to the throttle body servo to do what we want. The only difficult part is logging the signal that is applied to the servo and the corresponding signals of the TPS when the system is behaving as it should.
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Re: Closing the EGR Valve

Postby sierra on Sat May 19, 2012 5:52 pm

coxy47 wrote:
The way to do it is to use the arduino to read the signal to the servo and use this to output the signal of the correct throttle position sensor to the ecu and output a separate signal to the throttle body servo to do what we want. The only difficult part is logging the signal that is applied to the servo and the corresponding signals of the TPS when the system is behaving as it should.


I was assuming that the temp or accelerator pedal reading would be 'changed' or frozen when it arrived at the throttle body, not before that.
Couldn't the arduino receive, say the temp signal and then pass on to the throttle body that the coolant is always 50c?
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