Closing the EGR Valve *check first post for links*

Re: Closing the EGR Valve

Postby coxy47 on Fri Apr 20, 2012 5:02 pm

A catch can will help substantially but it wont stop all the carbon build up. In theory it should prevent the problems from occuring but i cant think of anyone who has been running only a catch can and not an egr blank for long enough to really provide a tried and true answer.

Tony will be able to give you a better answer but a Chip should help depending on what the actually reason for the problem is. I agree with Tony's opinion that its most likely a tuning problem and if thats the case a chipit should be able to help. Though it may require a custom tune as im not quite sure on how the chipit's tunes meter fuel and rail pressure etc.
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Re: Closing the EGR Valve

Postby sierra on Fri Apr 20, 2012 5:59 pm

Longranger1 wrote:Sierra, if you have an Ultraguage you can see in real time what the EGR valve opening percentages are. Yes, it is exactly as you say - the EGR valve opening percentages and consequent gas flow. There is also an Ultraguage function which shows the percentage of error in relation to the throttle valve. The throttle valve and the EGR valve work together and if one is out of step with the other then this will show as a percentage of error.


I set my Scanguage to read the throttle position, TPS. There's nothing I can see that reads the EGR valve and I thought that was either open or shut?

Anyway, it was wide open, 99%, up to 55c coolant temp and then at 20% up to 1/4 accelerator pedal and 99% above that to full a/pedal. Also 99% on no a/pedal and including idle. It never went below 19% and rarely showed anything inbetween 20% and 99% as it changed. On shutdown it stayed at 99% interestingly.
It makes sense the throttle valve mustn't close, hence the 20% minimum.

Different result to yours!
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Re: Closing the EGR Valve

Postby Longranger1 on Fri Apr 20, 2012 6:26 pm

sierra wrote:
Longranger1 wrote:Sierra, if you have an Ultraguage you can see in real time what the EGR valve opening percentages are. Yes, it is exactly as you say - the EGR valve opening percentages and consequent gas flow. There is also an Ultraguage function which shows the percentage of error in relation to the throttle valve. The throttle valve and the EGR valve work together and if one is out of step with the other then this will show as a percentage of error.


I set my Scanguage to read the throttle position, TPS. There's nothing I can see that reads the EGR valve and I thought that was either open or shut?

Anyway, it was wide open, 99%, up to 55c coolant temp and then at 20% up to 1/4 accelerator pedal and 99% above that to full a/pedal. Also 99% on no a/pedal and including idle. It never went below 19% and rarely showed anything inbetween 20% and 99% as it changed. On shutdown it stayed at 99% interestingly.
It makes sense the throttle valve mustn't close, hence the 20% minimum.

Different result to yours!


Mate, that's because you have one of those overpriced Scanguages. :lol: I can assure you that this is an egr dedicated guage function. The Ultraguage also has the function you describe ;)
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Re: Closing the EGR Valve

Postby srb on Fri Apr 20, 2012 8:46 pm

Gotta love these Ultragauges! :D
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Re: Closing the EGR Valve

Postby sierra on Fri Apr 20, 2012 9:18 pm

Longranger1 wrote:Mate, that's because you have one of those overpriced Scanguages. :lol: I can assure you that this is an egr dedicated guage function. The Ultraguage also has the function you describe ;)



You say the Ultraguage shows throttle valve and EGR valve operating together but the throttle valve can't be operating as you suggest.
Srb said the EGR valve closes completely under full acceleration but the throttle valve can never close completely and must be wide open under full acceleration.
I would suggest the Scangauge figures I gave for the throttle valve are accurate and the Ultraguage figures must be wrong.
;)

Why would you be interested in the EGR valve operation when it's blocked off? :?
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Re: Closing the EGR Valve

Postby srb on Fri Apr 20, 2012 10:15 pm

LR is correct about the Ultragauge function and the EGR valve function working with the throttle flap. This is how the EGR and clean air are mixed... Your readings are of the percentage of throttle flap opening, so when your throttle flap is only open at 20% it means the EGR valve will be open close to 80%. But with the blank plate there will be 0% EGR flow. This is why we are getting the vacuum spike in the intake manifold I assume.

And to answer your last question why LR and myself are interested in the EGR valve opening %? This is because of LR's stage 2 bypass. We have plumbed the boosted clean air from the intercooler through the EGR valve while leaving the EGR gasses blocked at the EGR cooler. So while the throttle body is partially closed at 20% there will be air pressure to travel down the bypass to the EGR valve that is open at say 80% ;)
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Re: Closing the EGR Valve

Postby srb on Fri Apr 20, 2012 10:23 pm

Here is what LR's stage 2 bypass looks like at the bottom of the EGR valve.

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And where the bypass starts at the Intercooler transfer pipe.
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Re: Closing the EGR Valve

Postby sierra on Sat Apr 21, 2012 10:39 am

srb wrote:LR is correct about the Ultragauge function and the EGR valve function working with the throttle flap. This is how the EGR and clean air are mixed... Your readings are of the percentage of throttle flap opening, so when your throttle flap is only open at 20% it means the EGR valve will be open close to 80%. But with the blank plate there will be 0% EGR flow. This is why we are getting the vacuum spike in the intake manifold I assume.

And to answer your last question why LR and myself are interested in the EGR valve opening %? This is because of LR's stage 2 bypass. We have plumbed the boosted clean air from the intercooler through the EGR valve while leaving the EGR gasses blocked at the EGR cooler. So while the throttle body is partially closed at 20% there will be air pressure to travel down the bypass to the EGR valve that is open at say 80% ;)


Thanks for that.
I had assumed from LR's post when he said ''The throttle valve and the EGR valve work together and if one is out of step with the other then this will show as a percentage of error.'' that the throttle valve and EGR valve opened and closed together but that's clearly not the case, as you point out they are largely opposite and also run at different percentage openings which are well out of a mirror image.
SRBI also have my Ultra gauge setup to see the EGR open and shut percentages. Mine is usually 100% open when I first start up in the mornings, then slowly shuts to around 45 - 69% driving around town. It does fluctuate with stop
start driving and like you said it closes completely under full acceleration and engine braking. And it also opens up 100% at highway speeds. It's interesting to see it work under different condition say.


So the EGR valve and throttle valve are actually running very differently.

Since the throttle valve is fully open from 1/4 acclerator pedal[AP] the mod to the EGR valve can have no effect after that point. The 20% opening also means it should have no effect at at say 0-10% AP. So we have 10-25% AP where the mod can have some benefit.
Although the feed pipe is 3/4'' the actual opening through the EGR valve is tiny by comparison.

I'm trying to objective because this is a serious mod that is in your face at the dealers but I just can't get my head around how it can be of any real benefit apart from in that very limited AP range? That it appears to work means there is something I have missed in the theory and i'm keen to learn what it is.

The other LR mod I can see offers benefit in raising the MAP reading in the 0-25% AP range and could be increasing the fuel.

Anyway, after LR's first mod I thought hard about an easier solution to stop codes caused by the EGR blanking plate and although I haven't been able to try it[no codes with mine] i'm pleased that others have [MAP line one way valve] and so far it seems to work but without the benefits of LR's mods to performance.
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Re: Closing the EGR Valve

Postby Longranger1 on Sat Apr 21, 2012 2:56 pm

Each to their own on this. The connecting hose is easily removed and blanked, so while there is still the evidence of welded fittings etc, there is nothing there that then serves any purpose. Care factor about this on my part - negligible.

"The other LR mod I can see offers benefit in raising the MAP reading in the 0-25% AP range and could be increasing the fuel."

By this do you mean fuel consumption increase? The fuelling at steady speeds wouldn't vary - if it did then you would actually be accelerating. Of course fuelling is going to be increased off idle because with the blank in manifold pressure is depressed. I found with only the blank in and no other mod's, torque down low was pathetic. :cry: As well as laggy as hell.

On your non-VGT engine Sierra, things are a little different, so what works on the VGT engine may not carry across to yours or for that matter the 3.2 engine. Theory says it would, though the proof is in the the trialling of it.

To cut a long story short, the 2 mod's work very well together and has little in the way of downsides apart from being obvious.

Another thing to consider is that the VGT set up will always have an exhaust back pressure pre-turbo higher than boost pressure - it cannot be any other way, as then you would have air pushed backwards into the exhaust manifold under conditions that the EGR is in play.

While I have found both mod's work extremely well, I understand that this isn't for everyone. Modifications to your vehicle are done at your own risk, whatever those modifications may be.

Caveat: Engine modifications of any sort can have downsides and pitfalls, so that is the risk you must acknowledge before undertaking any modifications. Performance chip companies will always give the same caveat, which is only fair to my way of thinking.
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Re: Closing the EGR Valve

Postby srb on Sat Apr 21, 2012 3:26 pm

Yeah I see what your saying regarding whether there is too much restriction through the EGR valve to be worth doing the mod. This may be true :roll: but there is some benefit in the AP range like you said, not sure how much yet cause most of my driving is stop start around town, it should show its benefits on the highway hopefully. Having said that... I can defiantly feel like something is different though. Seem to be less engine rattle at Idle and smoother running. This of course could be the placebo effect thingy though? :roll:

In regards to the dealer seeing it... If I ever have any warranty concerns with the engine then all I do is remove the bypass hose and screw plugs into the couplings and say it was for gas analyse test. :lol: That was LR's Idea! ;)

I don't really hide anything from my dealer anymore.. The new service manager there agrees with all my mod's. He's into modified cars him self and is aware of all the carbon problems with the new diesels.
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Re: Closing the EGR Valve

Postby odie602r on Sat Apr 21, 2012 3:55 pm

Okay, first half of my longer trip is done, post full EGR blank. 639.6kms, of which approx 525kms at highway cruising @100km/h, rest city driving. Used 63.15 L fuel, so economy of 9.87L/100kms.

That is after the inaugural EGR blank installed trip where it had used 11.02l/100kms.

So in other words, this leg of the trip saw me gain my equal 2nd best economy figure, only 0.4L/100kms off it's best at highway cruising (still not as good as I think it should be mind you).

Was planning to pull out EGR blank and block off one way valve for return leg, but now not so sure. Maybe it's worth doing a back to back with EGR blank in, to see it's maintained for the return leg. Return leg won't have the city driving component (well only 30-40kms) so not as much as the leg I just did.

What do think - evaluate the second leg with EGR blank still in, or pull it out?
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Closing the EGR Valve

Postby TUFF TROOP on Sat Apr 21, 2012 4:32 pm

Just leave it how it is . As you may drop another bolt and be stuck Again.. Which wouldn't be good haha! ,
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Re: Closing the EGR Valve

Postby odie602r on Sat Apr 21, 2012 5:09 pm

TUFF TROOP wrote:Just leave it how it is . As you may drop another bolt and be stuck Again.. Which wouldn't be good haha! ,



That's cruel Scottie! (possibly true though :roll: )

I'd like to think I've learnt from my first experience and have refined my technique - I consider myself a fast learner!
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Closing the EGR Valve

Postby TUFF TROOP on Sat Apr 21, 2012 6:31 pm

Haha that's a bonus then :) nothing worse than dropping a bolt and not hearing it hit the concrete lol
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Re: Closing the EGR Valve

Postby sierra on Sat Apr 21, 2012 6:58 pm

odie602r wrote:Okay, first half of my longer trip is done, post full EGR blank. 639.6kms, of which approx 525kms at highway cruising @100km/h, rest city driving. Used 63.15 L fuel, so economy of 9.87L/100kms.

That is after the inaugural EGR blank installed trip where it had used 11.02l/100kms.
So in other words, this leg of the trip saw me gain my equal 2nd best economy figure, only 0.4L/100kms off it's best at highway cruising (still not as good as I think it should be mind you).
Was planning to pull out EGR blank and block off one way valve for return leg, but now not so sure. Maybe it's worth doing a back to back with EGR blank in, to see it's maintained for the return leg. Return leg won't have the city driving component (well only 30-40kms) so not as much as the leg I just did.
What do think - evaluate the second leg with EGR blank still in, or pull it out?


So was the only difference the one way valve in the MAP line to achieve that figure ?
If that equals your second best economy figure why would you want to remove the EGR blank?

I agree the figures aren't great but compared with my ML 2.5 4x2 single cab's 8L/100km average I think 9L/100km for yours would seem about right. If I sat mine on 120kph I would expect it to fall to about 9L/100km.
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Re: Closing the EGR Valve

Postby odie602r on Sat Apr 21, 2012 7:07 pm

Yeah only difference between 11L/100 and this one was the one way valve in MAP line. Will leave it in for return leg tomorrow and check it out again. Watch this space.

Thanks too for those photos srb above, re long rangers other mod. How did you make up that tee pipe between the EGR cooler and valve? Would you consider making more?
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Re: Closing the EGR Valve

Postby sierra on Sat Apr 21, 2012 7:51 pm

Longranger1 wrote:"The other LR mod I can see offers benefit in raising the MAP reading in the 0-25% AP range and could be increasing the fuel."

By this do you mean fuel consumption increase? The fuelling at steady speeds wouldn't vary - if it did then you would actually be accelerating. Of course fuelling is going to be increased off idle because with the blank in manifold pressure is depressed. I found with only the blank in and no other mod's, torque down low was pathetic. :cry: As well as laggy as hell.

On your non-VGT engine Sierra, things are a little different, so what works on the VGT engine may not carry across to yours or for that matter the 3.2 engine. Theory says it would, though the proof is in the the trialling of it.

To cut a long story short, the 2 mod's work very well together and has little in the way of downsides apart from being obvious.

Another thing to consider is that the VGT set up will always have an exhaust back pressure pre-turbo higher than boost pressure - it cannot be any other way, as then you would have air pushed backwards into the exhaust manifold under conditions that the EGR is in play.

While I have found both mod's work extremely well, I understand that this isn't for everyone. Modifications to your vehicle are done at your own risk, whatever those modifications may be.


No, not increasing fuel consumption, increasing power since the diesel is throttled by fuel not air. Hence the improved response at low throttle from the MAP line mod as the pressure is raised and the ECU responds with more fuel for the increasing 'perceived' boost. That's my theory of it anyway.

I wouldn't think the VGT would cause much difference, both turbos would have the exhaust backpessure about twice that of the boost pressure.

I agree that theory and trial results can often be quite different. Disappointing, as expected or inspiring. I should imagine you are inspired. I'm still trying to figure out where the gains from the second mod come from? :?
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Re: Closing the EGR Valve

Postby srb on Sat Apr 21, 2012 8:10 pm

odie602r wrote:Okay, first half of my longer trip is done, post full EGR blank. 639.6kms, of which approx 525kms at highway cruising @100km/h, rest city driving. Used 63.15 L fuel, so economy of 9.87L/100kms.

That is after the inaugural EGR blank installed trip where it had used 11.02l/100kms.

So in other words, this leg of the trip saw me gain my equal 2nd best economy figure, only 0.4L/100kms off it's best at highway cruising (still not as good as I think it should be mind you).

Was planning to pull out EGR blank and block off one way valve for return leg, but now not so sure. Maybe it's worth doing a back to back with EGR blank in, to see it's maintained for the return leg. Return leg won't have the city driving component (well only 30-40kms) so not as much as the leg I just did.

What do think - evaluate the second leg with EGR blank still in, or pull it out?


Ben, I would be happy with those figures mate. :D My last highway figure was in the 10's and that was with stage1 bypass. :roll: But I have a big tool box on the back and roof racks. ;)
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Re: Closing the EGR Valve

Postby sierra on Sat Apr 21, 2012 8:12 pm

srb wrote:Yeah I see what your saying regarding whether there is too much restriction through the EGR valve to be worth doing the mod. This may be true :roll: but there is some benefit in the AP range like you said, not sure how much yet cause most of my driving is stop start around town, it should show its benefits on the highway hopefully. Having said that... I can defiantly feel like something is different though. Seem to be less engine rattle at Idle and smoother running. This of course could be the placebo effect thingy though? :roll:

In regards to the dealer seeing it... If I ever have any warranty concerns with the engine then all I do is remove the bypass hose and screw plugs into the couplings and say it was for gas analyse test. :lol: That was LR's Idea! ;)

I don't really hide anything from my dealer anymore.. The new service manager there agrees with all my mod's. He's into modified cars him self and is aware of all the carbon problems with the new diesels.


Got try these mods to see what happens or else just wonder what might have happened.
For a quieter engine have you ever tried 2 stroke oil? Valvoline racing oil $9.95 for 1L at Super Cheap. 400ml in the tank just before you fill up and then 1-200 or about 50ml per 100km travelled on the trip.
Check your fuel consumption after the first tank too!

The service dept in Tassie were also very interested in how to block it off without codes, to keep the farmers happy.
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Re: Closing the EGR Valve

Postby Longranger1 on Sat Apr 21, 2012 8:34 pm

sierra wrote: I agree that theory and trial results can often be quite different. Disappointing, as expected or inspiring. I should imagine you are inspired. I'm still trying to figure out where the gains from the second mod come from? :?


Simple. Increased net airflow and consequent oxygen content into the engine under egr operating conditions with a blank in place. No other explanation, that's it.

Which results in: Lower EGT's at cruise, slightly improved fuel economy, a smoother running engine with better driveability, smooth shutdown and nothing really to go wrong. Can't ask for more than that! :D Oh, and pristine clean intake manifolds not gradually developing asthma (killing power and efficiency) from clogging up with crap. :D :D

I can easily remove the 3/4" bypass hose and go back to previous operating conditions but I am stuffed if I want to, given the improvements.

No electronic widgets, clipped voltages or other bullshit to go wrong to cause motoring grief. No CEL's in the last 14000km's since I started this. What more could you want?

Steve is seeing the benefits as well, so I guess with 2 of us there is a little more in the way of opinion regarding the modifications as well. I am sure he will give an unbiased opinion as well on how it goes is his truck.
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Re: Closing the EGR Valve

Postby srb on Sat Apr 21, 2012 9:35 pm

I figure Im getting ok fuel figures for what i'm carrying around so I'm not that worried if I don't get better. :) The main reason I wanted to do this mod was to improve the well being of my engine ie no carbon build up, lower EGT's all by giving it some more air to breathe for better combustion with out the chance of CEL! ;) If that returns better fuel figures, well I guess thats a bonus! :D

I will report back after a while with an update on how it goes under different conditions, but I can certainly say SO FAR SO GOOD! :D
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Re: Closing the EGR Valve

Postby sierra on Sat Apr 21, 2012 9:42 pm

Yes, but it's still a small amount of air through the restriction of the EGR valve and for a very limited amount of accelerator movement. The same result could be achieved by shutting the throttle valve down to say 25% instead of 20% from fully open.
That might be achieved with a fraction of the work and be undetectable?

This is major surgery. There has to be a simpler way, after all just unplugging the throttle valve will achieve the same result and more, since there is a full flow of fresh air all the time with the blank in and the conditions also removed that cause the low pressure MAP code.
The only problem with that is a lumpy shut down.

Good on you for coming up with a solution and trying it out, I just think there has to be an easier way.
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Re: Closing the EGR Valve

Postby srb on Sat Apr 21, 2012 10:03 pm

Yeah I don't like the Idea of deleting the throttle flap because of the rough shut down. If there was away to open it up more during the cycle and not get CEL's then great! But nobody has been able to do this properly. LR's mod seem like drastic surgery but in reality it's not too hard and would take 5min to remove if your worried about you dealer seeing it. The work only took me an afternoon to complete and that's including taking the pipe's to my mates workshop for him to TIG weld the coupling on. I like It because it's such a simple concept... Nothing can go wrong with it. ;)

Hay a bit off topic Sierra but I've never tried the 2 stroke before and to be honest I don't know much about it. :shock: I would have to look into it myself before I tried it... Can you point me in the right direction regarding info on this? I'm happy to try anything as long as I know for sure It wont damage anything. :roll:
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Re: Closing the EGR Valve

Postby coxy47 on Sun Apr 22, 2012 6:54 am

sierra wrote:This is major surgery. There has to be a simpler way, after all just unplugging the throttle valve will achieve the same result and more, since there is a full flow of fresh air all the time with the blank in and the conditions also removed that cause the low pressure MAP code.
The only problem with that is a lumpy shut down.


This is the path that i was trying to go down with rectifiying the problem but i dont believe there is a good solution. The best method is to cut the power line for the Throttle Position Sensor as this will disable the thottle and once re-enabled will allow the engine to shutdown smoothly. It does generate an engine code, cant remeber what though :oops: .Some times this only appears as a pending code but it does become a CEL if you dont clear it. The best thing about this code though is that once it has been generated in that particular time the engine is one, it wont re-enable the throttle for egr purposes even if the sensor is re-enabled. So this means you can cycle the switch relatively quickly, read a minute between off and on, and the throttle will be fully open all the time and still shutdown correctly :D . But the down side is the CEL's it generates.

Other wires can be cut to disable the throttle but if you disable the actuator it generates a different code which prevents the car from shutting down properly until its cleared. It took me a while to figure out that was the case :oops: .

While you could automate this process of disabling and re-enabling the switch its not possible without the engine code.
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Re: Closing the EGR Valve

Postby coxy47 on Sun Apr 22, 2012 6:59 am

srb wrote:Hay a bit off topic Sierra but I've never tried the 2 stroke before and to be honest I don't know much about it. :shock: I would have to look into it myself before I tried it... Can you point me in the right direction regarding info on this? I'm happy to try anything as long as I know for sure It wont damage anything. :roll:


I ran the two stroke oil in the engine for a while and it definitly made it quieter and smoother but im not sure its overall a benefit. Last time i ran it my fuel economy was getting worse with it but i also had a reasonably blocked fuel filter at the time so that may have played a part :oops: . Ill have to try again.

I tend to run it at about 1:200 ratio of oil to diesel. Its definitly worth a try to see if you like it and im reasonably confident in saying it shouldnt cause any problems.
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Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2011 1:59 pm
Location: Brisbane Northside, Qld

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