Closing the EGR Valve *check first post for links*

Re: Closing the EGR Valve

Postby NitroGLXRin on Tue Aug 17, 2010 6:52 am

easyt wrote:so that would mean that im only making 13psi of boost then. from memory that seems a little low, i thought stock was 14.5 - 15psi?? can anyone confirm this for me please?


yeh, your boost is the difference. But I dont know where the sensors are, never looked into it. But the guys with the scan guages should know. When the engine is not running boost should be 0 and the atmospheric should be 14.7psi (approx). But when the engine is running this atmospheric reading in the inlet manifold will reduce, as air moving at a velocity is lower in pressure. So your boost should be the difference between that reading and the pressurised section of the manifold.

Thats the theory anyways, can anyone correct me if the scanguage reads or calculates this differently, or correction on sensor position / names?
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Re: Closing the EGR Valve

Postby biggibbo on Wed Aug 18, 2010 4:44 pm

OK, Time to Blank but after reading this thread I'm still confused where to blank my MN.
Given that both pipes are easily accesible which is the best place to do it, In this photo you can see both are pretty close together. I know someone will say closest to the manifold, but being mechanically illiterate that doesn't help me.
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The chip it install instructions suggest blanking off on this pipe based on the photos however the photos look like the ML, not the MN.
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Others have blanked off on this pipe
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Re: Closing the EGR Valve

Postby borngeek on Wed Aug 18, 2010 4:58 pm

its amazing how different that MN engine is gibbo (great photo's BTW)

we are working on the service manual CD as we speak so hopefully a better answer will appear soon...

my 15.5cents is to put on the lowest point possible.. closest to the exhaust gas outlet to the egr system..

from the photos the 2nd photo (which is definately NOT the ML manifold) is the best spot! this stops the egr gasses 'in its tracks' 8-)
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Re: Closing the EGR Valve

Postby Cowboy Dave on Wed Aug 18, 2010 5:07 pm

hmm, didn't I post the diagrams out of the manual already?

will try to find a link
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Re: Closing the EGR Valve

Postby Cowboy Dave on Wed Aug 18, 2010 5:46 pm

Okay well I've just wasted ages looking for the previous post and can't find it. I did work out though that I post way too much crap. :oops: :oops:

So, anyway, moving right along...

Here's the exploded view of the EGR system:
EGR layout.JPG


Key to the numbers on the diagram:
1. Engine cover
2. Battery cable clamp connection
3. Engine oil level gauge and guide assembly
4. O-ring
5. Transmission fluid level gauge and guide assembly <A/T>
6. O-ring <A/T>
7. EGR valve connector connection
8. EGR valve
9. EGR valve gasket
10. EGR pipe gasket
11. EGR pipe B
12. EGR pipe gasket
13. EGR pipe heat protector
14. EGR pipe A
15. EGR pipe gasket
16. EGR pipe gasket
17. Water hose
18. Heater piping hose connection
19. EGR cooler
20. EGR cooler bracket


Diagram of EGR Pipe A (whatever that is exactly...):
EGR pipe A.JPG


Diagram of EGR Valve (query if pipe B is there somewhere? It's number 11 up the top so I guess it's actually under the valve shown in the diagram):
EGR valve.JPG


Hope this helps someone. It's given me a headache....
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Re: Closing the EGR Valve

Postby biggibbo on Thu Aug 19, 2010 8:24 am

Thanks for the help BG and Cowboy, Pipe going into the cooler it is.
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Re: Closing the EGR Valve

Postby biggibbo on Fri Aug 20, 2010 5:41 pm

With help from Cowboy Dave and Borngeek I finally got around to fitting my EGR blank this morning and I've got to say it feels like I'm driving a totally different truck :D in a good way.

When I first got my truck I thought it was really laggy (is that a word?) and seemed to run out of puff at around 3200 rpm with a really narrow power band between 2500-3200. It really felt lacking in power compared to my D40 Navara. I just acceped it thinking the little motor just wasn't up to it, but hey i'm getting great economy so just be happy.

So I fitted the plate this morning and the thing is like I have a totally different motor. There is definately more grunt down low and is more responsive, but it seems to be pulling hard from 1900rpm right through to 3800 rpm now. It now seems more powerful than my Navara. How can such a small mod make such a huge difference?

I've also had a rattle somewhere in the dash/window when in gear but off throttle which has been driving me nuts, and this has dissappeared ever since the blank went in.

Nuthin more to say, I'm Stoked.
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Re: Closing the EGR Valve

Postby GLX-R Alex on Fri Aug 20, 2010 7:23 pm

What took you so long....
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Re: Closing the EGR Valve

Postby gregned on Fri Aug 20, 2010 7:25 pm

I did and you never responded so I got mine from CHIPIT
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Re: Closing the EGR Valve

Postby biggibbo on Fri Aug 20, 2010 9:36 pm

I've been lazy + the motor has never been cool enough when I've had the time. Amazing what a flexi day lets u get done.
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Re: Closing the EGR Valve

Postby woz on Sat Aug 21, 2010 11:05 am

just blanked egr in my MN and what a bloody joy it is to drive now, just took it for a 30 min spin around town and such a difference something so simple makes, not time to cool down and get the chipit chip in :twisted:
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Re: Closing the EGR Valve

Postby woz on Sat Aug 21, 2010 11:30 am

YYYEEEEOOOOOWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW haha what a bloody difference! :D :D :D
was a piece of piss to fit up only took 15 mins and the fuel rail plug came off first go, push the clip in and a little gentle wiggle and off she popped. pain in the ass getting the hands in there though.

running tune 4 and so far so good!


have to let TIO have a go to persuade him to put his in his new beast.
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Re: Closing the EGR Valve

Postby biggibbo on Sat Aug 21, 2010 2:16 pm

I've still got my chipit in the garage just looking at me wanting to be fitted. Hopefully tomorrow morning all going to plan it should be in. MOF is in QLD so I will have the morning to my self (as long as the kids cooperate).

Hope I get theose map sensor wires the right way around (blue to plug end, green back to the loom I think going by the destructions??)

Can't wait, but the EGR blank alone is blowing me away!
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Re: Closing the EGR Valve

Postby MLTRIT08 on Sat Aug 21, 2010 4:48 pm

Thanks Alex, just blanked my EGR, no problems and the performance gains is IMO huge, NICE :!: :!: :lol:
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Re: Closing the EGR Valve

Postby helicopter7 on Mon Aug 23, 2010 10:38 am

A bit of an essay below but what else do you want to read first thing on a Monday morning.

I have been thinking if there is a more elegant way to keep the EGR valve shut other that
going to the trouble of puting in the blanking plate, then having to remove it every time for a service.

BTW, we are talking about the 2010 MN 2.5 turbo here.

So I had a look at one of the older workshop manuals [2007] available on the internet showing the electrical connections to the EGR valve. Unfortunatelly either the connection diagram to test it or the test procedure itself is incorrect, and to make things worse the English is rather jiberish to say the least.

So being the world best electrical engineer [well in my mind anyway!] I proceeded to disconnect the plug to the EGR and conect a 5V power supply between pins 4 & 6 on the EGR connector [+ on pin 6 and - on pin 4]. Every time I applied the voltage I could hear the EGR valve/motor open and stay open as long as the + 5V remained. When the supply voltage was removed it appeared that the EGR closed again. Hm....................

OK then so I proceded to investigate what signal is sent back to the ECU to tell it the EGR has opened. This is where the workshop manual is confusing, but eventually worked out that a +5v signal appears on pin 1 when the EGR opens.

Great, all looking cool now, I am so good and know what to do :twisted:

Made up a simple circuit using a 12V relay and connected it onto the EGR plug going back to the ECU.

Basically the relay coil was connected between pins 4 & 6 on the plug, the reasoning being this is that when the EGR is commanded to open, the 12V relay will activate right?

Then connected the N/O relay pins between 1 & 3. Pin 3 on the plug has a constant +5V so when the relay activates
it simply send the +5V to pin 1 and back to the ECU to tell its open. Basically 4 wires going back into the EGR plug.

Having done this, I took the car out for a drive untill it reached operating temp, gave it a few bootfulls etc. All was good
no engine error codes showing with improved throttle response etc as already correctly pointed out by other members. :P

The one thing I did notice was when I turned the vehicle off, the engine no longer shut down smoothly but with sudden vengeance but anyway I thought who cares. Drove it again later on last night and it was fine.

So I thought all is good until this morning when I started the car and the engine light remain on :oops:

Drove to work fine, lots of power etc with the engine light on. Wonder why this morning and not last night :?:

What can I deduce from all of this, given that I have little or no technical information on the MN as to exactly how the EGR is commanded to open, I need to know the exact voltage sent by the ECU to the EGR motor/valve and furthermore what feedback is expected to be seen be the ECU, but I can only conclude the following:

My assumption is incorrect and the ECU drive voltage to the EGR is much less than 12V therefore not activating my 12V relay relay, and in turn the ECU not being sent back a +5V signal.....................???? which is the reason behind the engine check light error. I hope its that simple.

Does anyone out there have detailed information on EGR operation, someone with Mitsubishi workshop manual knowledge!

If I could get this information, I can then design a proper circuit to attach to the EGR plug, eliminating the need for the blanking plate and making the process of removing the realy before a service a 5 second job :D

cheers.
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Re: Closing the EGR Valve

Postby NitroGLXRin on Mon Aug 23, 2010 10:58 am

Sounds like your almost onto something there Helicopter. But if the check engine light is related to just if the valvel is open or closed, why do the pople with EGR plate fitted get the check engine lights as they would not touch the valve or the plug???

But I was also thinking of something similar but more of the mechanical side of things, havent looked into it yet but. My idea was, as it is avtivated by a solenoid, then this has to connect to the valve by some means to turn linear movement into circular. So just disconnect this connection and walla! Full operation of the solenoid but no valve opening. Then I rememberd the comments on air pressures and things about the engine light. And looking at the pic above about the parts breakdown, the egr valve and solenoid maybe a sealed component.
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Re: Closing the EGR Valve

Postby helicopter7 on Mon Aug 23, 2010 12:30 pm

NitroGLXRin wrote:Sounds like your almost onto something there Helicopter. But if the check engine light is related to just if the valvel is open or closed, why do the pople with EGR plate fitted get the check engine lights as they would not touch the valve or the plug???

But I was also thinking of something similar but more of the mechanical side of things, havent looked into it yet but. My idea was, as it is avtivated by a solenoid, then this has to connect to the valve by some means to turn linear movement into circular. So just disconnect this connection and walla! Full operation of the solenoid but no valve opening. Then I rememberd the comments on air pressures and things about the engine light. And looking at the pic above about the parts breakdown, the egr valve and solenoid maybe a sealed component.


Exactly my thoughts as well NitroGLXRin.

And yes, it does look like the EGR valve and solenoid are sealed.

How does a blanking plate trigger the check light is the $1M question. I was wondering the same thing as this now implies that the ECU is receiving additional engine parameter inputs as a result of blocking the EGR passage :evil:
So that means that fooling the ECU that the EGR is open as my circuit is doing [maybe?] is of little use.......who knows.

Almost worth the 3 hour trip down to the Canberra National Library as I checked and know they have a full MN workshop manual which can be coppied onto CD for a very small fee, although can't be sure it will have any more usefull info than the 2007 manual. Perhaps somebody living in Canberra can do this and post it here.

Having said all of this, what I may first do is to simply unplug the EGR and see what happens, with the following possibilities:

1. Check Engine light ON, and car goes into some sort of limp mode.
2. Check Engine light ON, and car simply continues to operate as normal.

If [2] above occurs, then why even bother with blanking plates, relays or circuits, just leave the EGR unpluged and when its time for a service, plug it back in and clear the code.

The only other consideration is that if [2] above happens, how do we know for sure that the ECU is now not doing other funny things with the engine parameters as a result of the engine check light! Oh this is so much fun.

So will get back when I do more testing.

Cheers.
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Re: Closing the EGR Valve

Postby Cowboy Dave on Mon Aug 23, 2010 12:44 pm

The electronically controlled EGR system consists of an EGR valve, engine-ECU and sensors.
The EGR valve aims at reducing the amount of NOx (nitric oxide) discharge that increases with the rise in the exhaust gas temperature. Thus, the engine-ECU optimally controls the exhaust gas temperature in accordance with the operating conditions of the engine.
To further improve the exhaust gas reduction performance, the system provides the engine-ECU feedback on the EGR valve opening. Thus, it effects EGR control to optimize the operating conditions of the engine.

AK802304AD00ENG.JPG


Quoted from the MMAL manual for the MN 2010 4D5 engine.

As the diagram shows there are plenty of sensors involved.

There's another bit that talks about 5V etc. Sounds like the voltage is not either none or 5V but rather that the voltage changes between nil and 5V depending upon how open the ECU says the valve should be. I can post some extra stuff tonight if it will help, not easy to do properly from where I am at presently.
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Re: Closing the EGR Valve

Postby dismatpe on Mon Aug 23, 2010 12:47 pm

I think its to do with it being a closed loop system. The emission levels are measured in the exhaust which relates to how much exhaust is recycled (to do with low sulphur emissions I believe). So I'm guessing that what your seeing is a warning on the closed loop system. This possibly explains why the designers are blaming the diesel in aust, in that if it had low sulphur to begin with, we wouldn't have to recycle it and wouldn't have blocked manifolds. I see it as two separate issues, the soot from the burn, and the oil vapours. I think the soot would eventually clear itself (i.e muffler style) except when mixed gets with oil....gooey mess! Btw I'm not a mechanic...just having a stab in the dark. It would be interesting to see if different fuel suppliers affect the engine light when the valve is tricked.
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Re: Closing the EGR Valve

Postby easyt on Mon Aug 23, 2010 5:56 pm

helicopter7 wrote:[+ on pin 6 and - on pin 4]. Every time I applied the voltage I could hear the EGR valve/motor open and stay open as long as the + 5V remained.
OK then so I proceded to investigate what signal is sent back to the ECU to tell it the EGR has opened. This is where the workshop manual is confusing, but eventually worked out that a +5v signal appears on pin 1 when the EGR opens.
Then connected the N/O relay pins between 1 & 3. Pin 3 on the plug has a constant +5V so when the relay activates
it simply send the +5V to pin 1 and back to the ECU to tell its open. Basically 4 wires going back into the EGR plug.


ok, so if im reading this right, why dont you just short pin 1 and 6 together and all your problems would be solved?
then as the ecu is commanding the valve to open by sending 5v down pin 6 its magically getting the same voltage back on pin 1 like it needs (if i read what you typed correctly).

it seems like its too easy for that to work but ..........
or have i missed something in your research?
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Re: Closing the EGR Valve

Postby Brett05 on Mon Aug 23, 2010 6:25 pm

back in April this year i had the upper inlet manifold replaced. All run smooth for a few weeks, then i had the surging again and the service manager at the local Mitsi Dealers took it for a drive and informed me the lower manifold will need replacing....will be a few weeks before we can do it. He then pointed out a to me a small hose that can be blanked off and this will stop the surging. He said to stuff a small bearing in there and away you go. Apparently it stops the signal to the suction control valve, and the surge wont be there. So i blanked it off and run for a few weeks like that....no probs at all. Few weeks later they replaced the lower manifold and i was very impressed with the outcome....until now. For the past week i have had a surge/flat spot under hard acceleration. Over the weekend i tried all the usual things to sus out the surging....found nothing.
So i tried the blanking of this little hose again and this has ridded my truck of the surging again. I know this means a trip to the dealers to have it checked out and fixed/replaced......so i thought i'd just share with you all the hose location and where to blank it off (as per instruction from the service guy)
Under the Engine cover, front right (looking at the engine from the front) is this solenoid with two black hoses, one with yellow stripes and one with white. Blank off the yellow one just above the solenoid. Now i don't know what this is for other than a supply to the suction control valve (maybe someone with a bit more knowledge than me would care to explain), but it has temporarily cured the problem
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Re: Closing the EGR Valve

Postby sam on Mon Aug 23, 2010 6:52 pm

Brett where does the hose/hoses run to and from in that pic :? :?:
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Re: Closing the EGR Valve

Postby Brett05 on Mon Aug 23, 2010 8:10 pm

one hose goes to this diaphragm thingy and the other goes to another solenoid type thing........sorry mate, note sure what they are called.......i'll go out and take a couple more shots of it
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sorry about the lack of light...........it's dark out there
yellow to this one
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white to this
Click to view larger picture
hope this helps
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Re: Closing the EGR Valve

Postby sam on Mon Aug 23, 2010 8:52 pm

I think it does :? the white stripe hose looks to go to the vaccum pump and the yellow I'm betting goes to the intake manifold butterfly's so by blocking that hose you are keeping the butterflys open. :?

Might be wrong so if anyone knows diff I'm happy to be corrected ;)
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Re: Closing the EGR Valve

Postby Cowboy Dave on Mon Aug 23, 2010 9:18 pm

as foreshadowed earlier here is the bit about checking the electronics for the EGR valve:
EGR valve check.JPG


Just to avoid confusion, a reminder that this is only the 4D5, the MN 2.5HP diesel.

Hope this helps somehow. All greek to me.
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