Closing the EGR Valve *check first post for links*

Re: Closing the EGR Valve

Postby gregned on Mon Aug 23, 2010 9:59 pm

helicopter7 wrote:
How does a blanking plate trigger the check light is the $1M Question

The map sensor detects a lower than expected value thats why the chipit unit eliminates the codes when using the blanking plate.
It appears from the diagram that Cowboy Dave provided the system has a EGR valve position sensor: The EGR valve position sensor ( EVPS ) detect the exact position of the EGR valve and send the information to the ECM, from this data, the computer can calculate the optimum EGR flow for the lowest NOx emissions and the best driveability, then control the EGR valve to alter the EGR flow through the EGR solenoid. The EVP sensor is a linear potentiometer that operates very much like a TPS, its electrical resistance changes in direct proportion to the movement of the EGR valve stem. when the EGR valve is closed, the EVP sensor registers maximum resistance; as the valve opens, resistance decreases untill it finally reaches a minimum value when the EGR valve is fully open.
So what is needed is like the CHIPIT unit a V in and a resistance out box Hey CHIPIT can you free up a third chanel analogue in analogue out?
Hint here is how to make a cheap unit buy a YM2760 servo motor from Jaycar affix a pot to it to emulate the EVPS helicopter7 have you measured the resistance of the EVPS I guess this would vary from 0 to 1K the servo may have to be run with a resistor on the negative if it moves too fast ie need to match the response time of the egr dc motor to the dc motor on the servo may even have to use the bigger motor if the ecu has current sensing to detect a blown DC motor. Anyway please ask questions and I will try to answer them. If the S.A. boys want to get together for an R&D session I will be in that too.
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Re: Closing the EGR Valve

Postby gregned on Mon Aug 23, 2010 10:25 pm

Sounds to me as if the operation check instructions are a bit lost in translation especially the blue "note" section.
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Re: Closing the EGR Valve

Postby NitroGLXRin on Tue Aug 24, 2010 6:11 am

ahh, my idea was way off, i thought they were a butterfly valve.
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Re: Closing the EGR Valve

Postby Try-it-on on Tue Aug 24, 2010 7:49 am

easyt wrote:on another note, can anyone tell me what 100 to 190kpa converts to as a psi?


Not sure if you know that you can type directly into a google search bar, almost any conversion, or even mathematics question/equation, and it tells you the answer.

Just type "190kPa in psi" and it gives the answer (must type kPa correctly, i.e. capital P and lower case k and a)
You can type things like "20 lb in oz" or "10kg in lbs"

You can type: 27x(36-2)/21

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You can even use phrases in it, so you can ask: "Mass of the Earth times three" or "half a cup in teaspoons" and it will tell you the answer.

You can find all the things it does here:
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Re: Closing the EGR Valve

Postby helicopter7 on Tue Aug 24, 2010 11:28 am

gregned wrote:
helicopter7 wrote:
How does a blanking plate trigger the check light is the $1M Question

The map sensor detects a lower than expected value thats why the chipit unit eliminates the codes when using the blanking plate.
It appears from the diagram that Cowboy Dave provided the system has a EGR valve position sensor: The EGR valve position sensor ( EVPS ) detect the exact position of the EGR valve and send the information to the ECM, from this data, the computer can calculate the optimum EGR flow for the lowest NOx emissions and the best driveability, then control the EGR valve to alter the EGR flow through the EGR solenoid. The EVP sensor is a linear potentiometer that operates very much like a TPS, its electrical resistance changes in direct proportion to the movement of the EGR valve stem. when the EGR valve is closed, the EVP sensor registers maximum resistance; as the valve opens, resistance decreases untill it finally reaches a minimum value when the EGR valve is fully open.
So what is needed is like the CHIPIT unit a V in and a resistance out box Hey CHIPIT can you free up a third chanel analogue in analogue out?
Hint here is how to make a cheap unit buy a YM2760 servo motor from Jaycar affix a pot to it to emulate the EVPS helicopter7 have you measured the resistance of the EVPS I guess this would vary from 0 to 1K the servo may have to be run with a resistor on the negative if it moves too fast ie need to match the response time of the egr dc motor to the dc motor on the servo may even have to use the bigger motor if the ecu has current sensing to detect a blown DC motor. Anyway please ask questions and I will try to answer them. If the S.A. boys want to get together for an R&D session I will be in that too.


Hi gregned.

Yes, I believe you are correct about the position sensor, and I also assumed this from the information I read as provided by cowboydave.

Problem is I did not see this behaviour when I applied a DC voltage across pins 4 & 5. I could hear the EGR open, which took about 1 second and then everything stopped. Even if I increased the voltage nothing else appeared to be happening.

While the EGR valve was held open, I had also applied +5V across pins 2 & 3 while monitoring pin 1. The voltage on pin 1 [sense voltage back to the ECU] just went from + 4.5V down to +0.5v when the valve closed. There did not appear to be a 'middle point' or a variable voltage based on EGR position. It was simple, with voltage applied the EGR opened and closed when the voltage was removed.

Another possibility is that the ECU pulses the EGR to hold it in some intermediate position, which then allows for a variable voltage to appear on pin 1.

Now having said all of this, you did mentioned that:
"The map sensor detects a lower than expected value thats why the chipit unit eliminates the codes when using the blanking plate. perhaps the check engine light is triggered"

If this is true, then there is no way to fool the ECU [apart from using the chipit] by the method I envisaged as even if I design a circuit to emulate the EVP sensor inside the EGR valve, the map sensor will still be there to trigger a fault regardless.

So I guess I'm wasting my time but appreciate a more in-depth understanding as I was stumped to see what triggers the engine light when the EGR gases are blocked.

Interestingly, after the engine light was triggered in the morning, I plugged the EGR back in some time later but the light remained on all day and night, even after a few stop/starts of the engine. This morning, started the car and you guessed it no more check light.

Go figure but it seems to happen when starting the engine from dead cold.
Co-incidence :?:

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Re: Closing the EGR Valve

Postby burnah on Tue Aug 24, 2010 12:03 pm

The engine light comes on with EGR blanking plate because a sensor detects a change in pressure or flow. Can't remember which one. I think it's a pressure drop in the manifold.
The tech at my local said that this can be overcome by drilling a small hole (3-5mm) in the plate. This brings the pressure change below the threshold amount that throws the code.
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Re: Closing the EGR Valve

Postby mad992 on Tue Aug 24, 2010 12:31 pm

SO this is what i should do 3mm-5mm hole and hope for no light 8-)
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Re: Closing the EGR Valve

Postby helicopter7 on Tue Aug 24, 2010 1:47 pm

mad992 wrote:SO this is what i should do 3mm-5mm hole and hope for no light 8-)



I just bought a nice set of rather expensive metal drills so I'm happy to fly up from Sydney with my Black & Decker to do this for you at no charge :lol:
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Re: Closing the EGR Valve

Postby gregned on Tue Aug 24, 2010 1:59 pm

Hi Helicopter7
There is another way you need to drill a hole in the intake butterfly valve as this shuts to suck in more egr.no intake egr with butterfly closed creates negative pressure I'll pm my no to you if you want to talk about it.
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Re: Closing the EGR Valve

Postby burnah on Tue Aug 24, 2010 2:02 pm

I reckon it's worth a crack.
If you google something like: drill 5mm hole egr plate
You'll get some hits from people doing it to other vehicles and some explanatory posts.
Just to reassure though, it was the head tech at my local stealer who told me about it. He said the hole lets just enough gas through to avoid the engine light.

I haven't had the guts to put a plate in mine as the vehicle belongs to the company I work for. My boss is cool. Don't think he'd mind if it wasn't going to void the engine warranty.
Am hanging to give it a go though with all the good reports I've read.
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Re: Closing the EGR Valve

Postby mad992 on Tue Aug 24, 2010 4:57 pm

helicopter7 wrote:
mad992 wrote:SO this is what i should do 3mm-5mm hole and hope for no light 8-)



I just bought a nice set of rather expensive metal drills so I'm happy to fly up from Sydney with my Black & Decker to do this for you at no charge :lol:



SSSWWWHEEEEETTTTT
thanks mate :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: Closing the EGR Valve

Postby patrolus on Thu Aug 26, 2010 2:19 pm

hey guys,
just slid the blanking plate in to replace the original (3 thin layers) metal gasket(no idea if that is a gasket or what)..... :roll:
and princess- (i had to name the triton that way...sorry....but it is just sooooo complicated and sophisticated compared to my trusty 4.2tdi.....)
-goes well :D not too sure if there is a difference to before, but at least i had no engine light comin on or any other probs....
so, all good....clean air for princess and peace of mind for me ;)
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Re: Closing the EGR Valve

Postby patrolus on Wed Sep 08, 2010 10:41 am

ok. now after some k's traveled princess starts to chuck error code 299 manifold under pressure (something like that) every now and then. funny enough, never under heavy load, only when cruising down to the shops
. it's easy enough to clear (even while driving :) but still not what i want in a new car.
has anyone drilled those holes yet? and does it stop the error code??
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Re: Closing the EGR Valve

Postby mad992 on Wed Sep 08, 2010 12:05 pm

patrolus wrote:ok. now after some k's traveled princess starts to chuck error code 299 manifold under pressure has anyone drilled those holes yet? and does it stop the error code??



X2 :?:
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Re: Closing the EGR Valve

Postby reeldreamer on Wed Sep 08, 2010 1:52 pm

I have had the limp mode probably 5 times now since having the manifolds replaced. I reinstalled my EGR plate did roughly 1200k's no worries then all of a sudden it started! Again not under load just coasting but my scangauge doesn't display any fault?? I have just put on a catch can in so I am interested to see how that goes...

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Re: Closing the EGR Valve

Postby Jitsukablue on Wed Sep 08, 2010 3:14 pm

helicopter7 wrote:Exactly my thoughts as well NitroGLXRin.

And yes, it does look like the EGR valve and solenoid are sealed.

How does a blanking plate trigger the check light is the $1M question. I was wondering the same thing as this now implies that the ECU is receiving additional engine parameter inputs as a result of blocking the EGR passage :evil:
So that means that fooling the ECU that the EGR is open as my circuit is doing [maybe?] is of little use.......who knows.


Putting the black plate creates a low (absolute) manifold pressure error because there isn't any pressure from the EG being R'ed. The ChipIT modifies the MAP to what the ECU expects to see, hence no code.

I have mentally done what you actually did (the circuit solution, I'm a sayer, not a do'er!), and the reason you get a light is simple. When you run that circut it stops the butterfly doing it's test when you key on. The ECU throws a code because the butterfly isn't responding. If you just delayed that circuit running for a minute then you wouldn't get an error code.
Also something to bear in mind (this has been pointed out before), without the butterfly valve working, shut down won't be as fast, and potentially would allow the engine to run away if it ever started burning its oil. If you could kill that circuit when you key off that would fix the problem.
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Re: Closing the EGR Valve

Postby patrolus on Wed Sep 08, 2010 3:40 pm

mhm.
reading and reading and reading about bloody egr mods makes me really thirsty.... ;) where is me beer?? :D
so here comes my next question. the way i see it, the sensor actually senses that there is not enough pressure in the manifold. does that mean that without the egr feeding the manifold we do not get enough air in to our intake system, which wouldn't be that healthy for our engine. :?: :?:
at the end of the day diesel engines are not restricting the air volume like petrol eng do????!?
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Re: Closing the EGR Valve

Postby burnah on Fri Sep 17, 2010 9:15 am

reeldreamer wrote:I have had the limp mode probably 5 times now since having the manifolds replaced. I reinstalled my EGR plate did roughly 1200k's no worries then all of a sudden it started! Again not under load just coasting but my scangauge doesn't display any fault?? I have just put on a catch can in so I am interested to see how that goes...

Mitch


The ECU reports an error when the MAP sensor detects that the pressure is below a certain value. The minimum pressure allowed is set to the highest value they can get away with without errors occurring with all else being the way it should.
Your plate is restricting the flow to a degree which drops MAP to a point just above the threshold.
The reason it's OK most of the time is that the MAP increases as your revs go up.
I've been watching my Scangauge the last few days and have noticed that the pressure rises as the throttle is opened except at LOT. When I first take off and as I'm just coming to a halt the MAP actually drops slightly below the reading I get when I'm idling.
My bet is that a 5mm hole in your blanking plate will allow just enough EGR to prevent the MAP from dropping below the error level when your throttle is just open.
This is what my stealer's tech was hinting at.
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Re: Closing the EGR Valve

Postby shotgun283 on Fri Sep 17, 2010 5:00 pm

well had my first problem today, loss of power and cruise wouldnt activate. Reading old posts sounds like it could be related to blanking off the EGR, so that will come out before going to dealer. My question is when did Mitz fit updated inlet manifolds to the ML ????? Thanks for the PM from 4wd26 on this issue, once again the $50 for platinum subscription is cheep for what this site has to offer
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Re: Closing the EGR Valve

Postby quigley595 on Sat Sep 18, 2010 9:05 am

I have been trying to PM GLX-R Alex for availability on the blanking plates, but with no success.

The PMs just sit in my outbox...... has anyone any idea why this is happening???? I have successfully PM'd other users.

And Alex... if you see this, could you PM me for availability and if suitable for the MN??
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Closing the EGR Valve

Postby Brett05 on Sat Sep 18, 2010 9:44 am

He must be away....your PM will stay in your outbox until he reads it. That way you know he has read it

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Re: Closing the EGR Valve

Postby quigley595 on Sat Sep 18, 2010 9:47 am

quigley595 wrote:I have been trying to PM GLX-R Alex for availability on the blanking plates, but with no success.

The PMs just sit in my outbox...... has anyone any idea why this is happening???? I have successfully PM'd other users.

And Alex... if you see this, could you PM me for availability and if suitable for the MN??


Cool.....
thanks Brett... I was thinking of MS Outlook, where it leaves the outbox immediately on sending.
In that case, I will delete one of the 2 duplicate msgs I have in there !!! :) :)
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Re: Closing the EGR Valve

Postby snowman on Sat Sep 18, 2010 1:48 pm

shotgun283 wrote:My question is when did Mitz fit updated inlet manifolds to the ML ?????


The revised sensor location which is the 'modified' upper manifold that many people are getting done under warranty, was placed on the MY-09 model as standard equipment.

The rumoured revised 'lower manifold' for the 3.2 was, to my knowledge, never installed on this engine standard from the factory. i don't know anything about the lower manifold replacement and when i mentioned it to my dealer warranty rep he gave me a look that indicated that he didn't either.
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Re: Closing the EGR Valve

Postby tokirky on Sat Sep 18, 2010 6:44 pm

I just got mine back from the dealer with all the limps in the world and they said i have the old manifold
build march 08. They are replacing the upper only, when i have more problems they will replace the bottom :shock:
Just do it all at once you po#fers.........
I have the blank still in.
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Re: Closing the EGR Valve

Postby lazarus on Sat Sep 18, 2010 9:28 pm

how come u got all the problems and limps even with blank plate fitted?
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