Closing the EGR Valve *check first post for links*

Re: Closing the EGR Valve

Postby borngeek on Sun Sep 19, 2010 6:40 am

snowman wrote:
shotgun283 wrote:My question is when did Mitz fit updated inlet manifolds to the ML ?????


The revised sensor location which is the 'modified' upper manifold that many people are getting done under warranty, was placed on the MY-09 model as standard equipment.

The rumoured revised 'lower manifold' for the 3.2 was, to my knowledge, never installed on this engine standard from the factory. i don't know anything about the lower manifold replacement and when i mentioned it to my dealer warranty rep he gave me a look that indicated that he didn't either.


^^ these are the facts :D
I have a MY09 and new upper manifold std.
they replace the lower once carbon is built up to the point of rediculous. ie. they are trying to see if your warrantee will finish before it happens... :evil:

blank that EGR :mrgreen:
the vacuum line block as reported by brett on page 25 HERE
could this help with limpies for those blocking without chip?? a worthy experiment.. seems that Brett removed the surging this way...
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Re: Closing the EGR Valve

Postby Steane on Sun Sep 19, 2010 7:34 am

I'm going to give Brett's ball bearing fix a go. Only surge I have is on first start up when it is cold. Bunny-hops like a bitch. Noticed what I thought was some light throttle surge when offroad the other day, got a bit jumpy over the bumpy stuff which is something I haven't come across before. Turning the sprint booster off fixed it, but I have a feeling it is something that the SB is amplifying, not causing.
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Re: Closing the EGR Valve

Postby Brett05 on Sun Sep 19, 2010 8:52 am

borngeek wrote:
blank that EGR :mrgreen:
the vacuum line block as reported by brett on page 25 HERE
could this help with limpies for those blocking without chip?? a worthy experiment.. seems that Brett removed the surging this way...


thats right guys,
i run around for a few weeks with this blocked off and never had the surging at all. The day i took it out to take it to the dealers, the surging came back. What i did notice when i blocked it off.....both times i have blocked it off, the first initial start and drive up the road, the truck kind of gave a cough, then all was great.

hope this help solve your issue

cheers
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Re: Closing the EGR Valve

Postby GLX-R Alex on Sun Sep 19, 2010 10:56 am

quigley595 wrote:I have been trying to PM GLX-R Alex for availability on the blanking plates, but with no success.

The PMs just sit in my outbox...... has anyone any idea why this is happening???? I have successfully PM'd other users.

And Alex... if you see this, could you PM me for availability and if suitable for the MN??


Sorry man.. I was away in Brisvagas for work.. I travel constantly. Anyone seen all the Bauer drilling rigs working at Kedron on the airport link job. I am head mechanic in Australia fixing those bastards.

I have any amount of plates available now pre packed in envelopes ready for dispach. Sorry for the delays last week replying.
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Re: Closing the EGR Valve

Postby mad992 on Sun Sep 19, 2010 3:16 pm

hey alex i got something to ask u, what do u reckon about putting a 5mm hole in the blanking plate to stop cel :|
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Re: Closing the EGR Valve

Postby GLX-R Alex on Mon Sep 20, 2010 12:06 pm

Im not drilling it because the black stuff will go through... :x
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Re: Closing the EGR Valve

Postby shotgun283 on Mon Sep 20, 2010 5:10 pm

ok thanks snowman, mine an 09
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Re: Closing the EGR Valve

Postby tokirky on Thu Sep 30, 2010 8:04 pm

A couple of TAFE teachers and tradies were talking today regarding the different exhaust gas temps in the cylinder head. (4m41 eng)
If you have 100% nice clean air going in (blank in) you will get a bigger bang, more heat...If you have a % egr gas going in,(no blank) its already had a burn so less bang, less heat??? Makes sense to me.

So what I am thinking is long term, if you have a blank in, your combustion temps are higher, how higher? and could it lead to a cracked head, piston or top ring?????

If the temp is a lot higher this could be true, maybe even throw a limp or two???

So much to learn about this little EGR valve and its true value.
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Re: Closing the EGR Valve

Postby NitroGLXRin on Fri Oct 01, 2010 7:02 am

^^^^Yeh I asked one of the diesel engine techs at QUT (Quensland University of Technology) about what would he do about the EGR. His advice was to leave it alone, all it is is a maintenance activity to clean the intake. I wasnt going to post that becuas I know alot of guys will disagree, but since it came up.

as for the temps, as you said egr means 'dirty' air so doesnt allow a 'complete' burn because th ratio of oxygen and fuel is not 100% correct, so less fuel burnt which means less energy input, therfore less heat transfer. So if an engine cracks a rod, piston, ring, head, valves etc, with your egr installed I would probly say good buy warranty, or be up for a lengthy battle with mitsubishi engineers. But as its been said before, it has to be directly related to the egr being installed, so anycomponent up around the cylinder that is affected by extra heat transfer would be the only things in question.
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Re: Closing the EGR Valve

Postby borngeek on Fri Oct 01, 2010 7:15 am

I agree that more heat is created with the egr blocked due to the better combustion.

My understanding, and correct me if I am wrong, is that the EGR valve is only open at the lower end of the RPM range ide to 2000ish RPM.. This is where not much heat would be generated as it is mostly off boost anyway?

Did they share the difference in temps across the rev range by any chance? I would be suprised if it was significantly different in the main power area of the engine to cause long term problems.

great posts!
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Re: Closing the EGR Valve

Postby NitroGLXRin on Fri Oct 01, 2010 8:08 am

^^^^they didnt say anything but when doing the deisel engine prac, I was watching the EGT monitors. For this particular diesel engine (big ass straight 6 cyl, turbo, Cummins diesel) at idl EGT was around the 120-140degrees C across all 6 cyl, when RPM was increase to the 2000rpm mark EGT jumped almost instantly to the 350 degrees. They did mention that this particular engine can get EGT's of 700-800degrees C.

So what your said borngeek is correct. Its only counteracting the NOX emisions, and I think they are created at around the 500degree C area. So yeah EGR should be closed at least untill 2000rpm is reached.
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Re: Closing the EGR Valve

Postby tokirky on Fri Oct 01, 2010 9:16 am

If the egr valve is closed after about 2K, ex temps should be the same regardless of blank in or out over 2K.
So temp change will be when driving below 2K.

So always drive over 2K and have no probs.... :?

Why did I ever bring it up?????

P.S I think I will still leave mine in for awhile. Maybe do some dyno testing next year.
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Re: Closing the EGR Valve

Postby NitroGLXRin on Fri Oct 01, 2010 9:32 am

^^^ other way around, you should have said;

If the egr valve is open....., ex temps will be different if blank in or out over 2K.

ahhh, i see where this got confused. Borngeek said it should be open at under 2000rpm. Where It should be closed at under 2000rpm (low temp) as its not needed due to NOX not being created.

But, but, but, I have heard when the engine is cold that egr is opened to warm the engine up quicker!!! not too sure on this one, never looked into it. Sounds a little silly.

Edit: just read that it is not used at idel due to unstable combustion resulting in rough idle, and that it is not used under high loads. So sounds like its very controlled for when it opens and closes. And that NOX is created around the 1500degree mark, but this relates to the internal flame temperature. So EGT wont be anywhere near this.
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Re: Closing the EGR Valve

Postby Steane on Fri Oct 01, 2010 10:04 am

I am fairly certain BG is correct, and in the case of diesel engines the EGR valve is generally only open at idle or low rpm.

I won't ever be removing my EGR blank.

This used to be on Wikipedia;

SI = spark ignited engines

EGR in diesel engines
In modern diesel engines, the EGR gas is cooled through a heat exchanger to allow the introduction of a greater mass of recirculated gas. Unlike SI engines, diesels are not limited by the need for a contiguous flamefront; furthermore, since diesels always operate with excess air, they benefit from EGR rates as high as 50% (at idle, where there is otherwise a very large amount of excess air) in controlling NOx emissions.

Since diesel engines are unthrottled, EGR does not lower throttling losses in the way that it does for SI engines (see above). However, exhaust gas (largely carbon dioxide and water vapor) has a higher specific heat than air, and so it still serves to lower peak combustion temperatures. There are trade offs however. Adding EGR to a diesel reduces the specific heat ratio of the combustion gases in the power stroke. This reduces the amount of power that can be extracted by the piston. EGR also tends to reduce the amount of fuel burned in the power stroke. This is evident by the increase in particulate emissions that corresponds to an increase in EGR. Particulate matter (mainly carbon) that is not burned in the power stroke is wasted energy. Stricter regulations on particulate matter(PM) call for further emission controls to be introduced to compensate for the PM emissions introduced by EGR. The most common is particulate filters in the exhaust system that result in reduced fuel efficiency. Since EGR increases the amount of PM that must be dealt with and reduces the exhaust gas temperatures and available oxygen these filters need to function properly to burn off soot, automakers have had to consider injecting fuel and air directly into the exhaust system to keep these filters from plugging up.

EGR deletion
EGR deletion in diesel engines is considered justifiable by a wide range of people, including the environmentally conscious. Although deleting the EGR system results in increased NOx level; hydrocarbon emissions, particulates, carbon monoxide and carbon dioxide are drastically reduced. Furthermore, EGR deletion results in an increase in fuel economy as high as 25%. Exhaust gas recirculated back into the cylinders adds wear-inducing contaminants and causes an increase engine oil acidity, which can result in an inefficient, poorly running engine. The increased level of soot also creates the need for diesel particulate filters to prevent environmental contamination.
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Closing the EGR Valve

Postby gregned on Fri Oct 01, 2010 10:59 am

Steane you are 100% correct my research universe the same lower temps = lower nox emission and egr is active at light and part throttle
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Re: Closing the EGR Valve

Postby NitroGLXRin on Fri Oct 01, 2010 11:09 am

Steane: Yeah i read that when it was up as well, but one thing I thought was wrong. There statement;

Although deleting the EGR system results in increased NOx level; hydrocarbon emissions, particulates, carbon monoxide and carbon dioxide are drastically reduced.

is the bit i dont get. Yes NOx will increase due to higher temps. But HC's and CO and CO2 have nothing to do with weather the EGR is there or not. As these are dependent on the fuel itself. Primary way of reducing these are different fuel mix's ie: bio-diesel. So carnt see how they justified that. And the part about fuel saving 25%, well theres also studys that say EGR improves economy.
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Re: Closing the EGR Valve

Postby gregned on Fri Oct 01, 2010 12:03 pm

Perhaps chipit can tell us what they know/ were taught at that expensive diesel course they attended
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Re: Closing the EGR Valve

Postby Steane on Fri Oct 01, 2010 12:42 pm

NitroGLXRin wrote:Steane: Yeah i read that when it was up as well, but one thing I thought was wrong. There statement;

Although deleting the EGR system results in increased NOx level; hydrocarbon emissions, particulates, carbon monoxide and carbon dioxide are drastically reduced.

is the bit i dont get. Yes NOx will increase due to higher temps. But HC's and CO and CO2 have nothing to do with weather the EGR is there or not. As these are dependent on the fuel itself. Primary way of reducing these are different fuel mix's ie: bio-diesel. So carnt see how they justified that. And the part about fuel saving 25%, well theres also studys that say EGR improves economy.


I think they are claiming that the 25% fuel saving means a corresponding drop in those pollutants, ie burn 25% less fuel and pump out 25% less emissions but more NOx because the EGR is inoperable.

A 25% decrease in fuel usage is a BIG call (although it claims 'up to 25%), I haven't read of anyone on this forum achieving that. I couldn't claim a decrease in fuel usage with my ML as I've never done a before or after, and didn't notice a change at all (up or down), but it does have a little more responsiveness, the oil is 1000% cleaner, and I haven't had any further carbon build-up issues - so I'm happy :D
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Re: Closing the EGR Valve

Postby NitroGLXRin on Fri Oct 01, 2010 1:06 pm

^^^^carnt argue with your actual results ;) garanteed cleaner engine no doubt. But personally I just carnt risk the warranty. You dont know if your cam shaft, conrod, piston, head etc is going to crap itself because of a manufacturing defect. And if it does with the EGR plate installed, then mitsubishi engineers could spin alot more shit than I could. And as soon as they say 'the engine is operating out of its intended specifications' then what can you do. Anyways, thats the only reason I wont be putting a blank plate in, but as soon as 10yrs and 1 day comes around, the blank will go in :lol:
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Re: Closing the EGR Valve

Postby Steane on Fri Oct 01, 2010 2:15 pm

You have to do what you are comfortable doing Nitro. I'll just take the plate out if something goes bang, but I'm betting on that being a real long shot (touch wood).
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Re: Closing the EGR Valve

Postby tokirky on Fri Oct 01, 2010 8:06 pm

At least we agree that the egr only works at low rpm.
the 25% economy is from wikipedi - sssoooo maybe not 100% true....
Nitro you will go through alot of manifold cleans for the next 10 years - if you engine does crap itself I'll help you out, I'm in the rebuilding game. :lol:

Like steane says take the plate out if it goes bang..
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Re: Closing the EGR Valve

Postby borngeek on Sat Oct 02, 2010 4:43 am

Steane wrote:I am fairly certain BG is correct, and in the case of diesel engines the EGR valve is generally only open at idle or low rpm.


:? Well I guess theres a first time for everything! :lol:

good read and info :D
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Re: Closing the EGR Valve

Postby destorman on Sat Oct 02, 2010 4:56 am

tokirky wrote: ... So much to learn about this little EGR valve and its true value.


For a mechanically challenged noob like me, I couldn't agree more ... BUT, man you guys have got some good info and a great logical argument going here ...

I'm in the 'not do anything in case of warranty issues now or later (eg: manufacture defect, or other long term impacts)' camp, with this EGR blocking issue.

Thanks for the great info.
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Re: Closing the EGR Valve

Postby sarice on Sat Oct 02, 2010 5:17 am

I am in the same boat regarding blocking the egr. I have the plates made ready to go in but have also discussed it long and hard up front with my dealer service manager. Immediate cancellation of warranty is their response to any indication of tampering with the valve setup in any way. The only thing I will get away with is having the valve cleaned or serviced with receipts from a qualified person. As a consequence they are aware that I`m keen to block it so I need to be careful what I do as I do not want to void my warranty.
They also know and have indicated strongly to me that the blow by is the issue more than the soot and that by itself the dry carbon will probably not cause the dramas it does when the two are mixed together, hence the encouragement to install a quality catch can. It is a bit unbelievable that they still have the same issues with the new engines.
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Re: Closing the EGR Valve

Postby RHKTriton on Sat Oct 02, 2010 4:52 pm

Ya gotta wonder how these engine would go if they actually started with a clean sheet - ie. removed all the add-on crap and just use the good bits - turbo, set of headers, long inlets, decent intercooler and user settable ECU.
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