Closing the EGR Valve *check first post for links*

Re: Closing the EGR Valve

Postby NTBB on Thu Nov 25, 2010 6:29 pm

snowman wrote:No.

Firstly i am emailing CCM (Chris) to see of the tune can be changed to leave it closed.

If there is no love there then yes i may as well drill the hole as the plate is no good to me as it is.

The limpies are always on light throttle so maybe the small hole will be enough. the thing is that it is letting some crap through and some is too much in my opinion. although with the MRT tune it will be only at idle i am told.

Still there is a lot of idle - or off throttle - over the life of the motor.


Snowy I had a chat with Brett today and he informed me that they can write out the egr and i assume that is what they done with nelds done at S&J in SA.
Brett did however did say that it is at the cost of some power an economy....Have you gone any futher with Mrt as to changing you tune :?:
CD posted today that Chris is no longer with the MRT team so i guess the Tri test vehical is no longer avalilable..... :cry:
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Re: Closing the EGR Valve

Postby snowman on Fri Nov 26, 2010 9:57 am

NTBB wrote:
snowman wrote:No.

Firstly i am emailing CCM (Chris) to see of the tune can be changed to leave it closed.

If there is no love there then yes i may as well drill the hole as the plate is no good to me as it is.

The limpies are always on light throttle so maybe the small hole will be enough. the thing is that it is letting some crap through and some is too much in my opinion. although with the MRT tune it will be only at idle i am told.

Still there is a lot of idle - or off throttle - over the life of the motor.


Snowy I had a chat with Brett today and he informed me that they can write out the egr and i assume that is what they done with nelds done at S&J in SA.
Brett did however did say that it is at the cost of some power an economy....Have you gone any futher with Mrt as to changing you tune :?:
CD posted today that Chris is no longer with the MRT team so i guess the Tri test vehical is no longer avalilable..... :cry:


This is what i received from Brett on these two issues.

EGR valve - [Brett] "we can turn the EGR off fully if we choose to and it should have the same impact as if you fitted a blanking plate. However, we normally retain SOME operation as there are some small gains with fuel consumption and emissions and minimal torque loss in some ranges of engine operation at light throttle."

Triton Development - [snowman] "I assume all Triton related tune developments are now dead at MRT?"
[Brett] "dead? no way, one staff person leaving does not mean we change focus, Chris was simply reporting to you and staff re mods, there are many other staff here involved in the Triton project! In the last 3 days we have booked and tune several 3.2 and 2.5 Did models plus we do all the r/d and support for EcuteK tuners Nationally PLUS last nite I was on the phone updating the UK with test items as well as getting updates from them for some exciting new updates that we will release shortly"

Irrespective of this comment i can't help but feel that now Chris has gone the R&D will be less as they dont have a development vehicle in their workshop. Chris was looking at intercoolers and bigger turbos as well. :(

i am considering an exhaust upgrade and may get them to revise the tune when i do that. From other posts it seem that most EGR polluting happens at low throttle percentages anyway and hence why i want to shut it off.
This car is like a bad drug habit. It is taking all my money and time, my family are concerned, but new mods just feel sooooooo good.
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Re: Closing the EGR Valve

Postby NTBB on Fri Nov 26, 2010 11:49 am

Snowy I talked to Sean at S&J Today and he said it was no dramas keeping the valve shut i his mind he feels it would be a good option.
Sean also metioned that nelds was kind enough to let them fit a pyro...... :mrgreen: and they spent a bit of time on in house development....sounded like nelds realy took one for the team..... :lol:
I got the impression that sean puts a fair bit of effort in keeping it safe hence the pyro to check the change in egt's with the tune change to the egr valve.
So it seems to me that this ecuteck dealer and hopefully others will take thier time to make sure the tune is as safe and taylored to the needs of the client..... 8-)
Oh and for tho's close to MRT the offer Re chips is worth ringing brett about.... :mrgreen:
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Re: Closing the EGR Valve

Postby NTBB on Fri Nov 26, 2010 12:02 pm

[quote="snowman now Chris has gone the R&D will be less as they dont have a development vehicle in their workshop. Chris was looking at intercoolers and bigger turbos as well. :(

i am considering an exhaust upgrade and may get them to revise the tune when i do that. From other posts it seem that most EGR polluting happens at low throttle percentages anyway and hence why i want to shut it off.[/quote]

So any idea what dyno time at MRT is worth.. :?: I reckon if you start playing with bigger turbos ect.. you will have to get a pyro fitted then yours will become a test pig.... :twisted:
And we are now in the same boat as the 2.5 guys anyway as they had no test pig in MRT.... :P
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Re: Closing the EGR Valve

Postby quigley595 on Sat Nov 27, 2010 4:00 pm

CEL light just came on today.

I do have the EGR blank in, but I didn't notice any limp mode... however, I was in the side street near home and not going too hard.

So..... I'm wondering what I can do... should I disconnect the battery? Ignore it? Drill a hole in the EGR plate?

I don't have any way to clear the code myself... pity there wasn't anyone here on the sunny coast with a scanguage.

What a hassle.... and I am all set to go to Bribie next Friday. If it goes into limp mode I will be buggered.

There is another thread with 'Engine Light On', and I have posted this note there as well.
Have to get this fixed before the Friday Bribie trip.

cheers, Mike
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Re: Closing the EGR Valve

Postby MRTbrett on Sat Nov 27, 2010 8:26 pm

Just so everyone knows we have done a lot of testing with closing and opening the EGR via the ECU. Its important to understand that whilst closing it permanently can have some benefits and there are some other disadvantages.
The EGR map in the ECU is variable across a lot of the RPM or engine Torque "range"
One of the (many) ways we have improved the power of the engine is by controlling this function its not the total reason but does effect it.
My advise is depending on what solution you use, consider the reasons Mitsubishi has it there in the first place, and if you are concerned about how dirty it is, dont worry, the engine burns and creates soot, its a result by design.
if anyone wants more info or some screen shots of the EGR map/s, please PM me MRTbrett@MRTperformance.com.au

I hope this helps

:)
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Re: Closing the EGR Valve

Postby MRTbrett on Sat Nov 27, 2010 8:37 pm

BTW we have access to several turbo Mitsubishis, so whilst we are sorry to see Chris go, we at present have a brand new Pajero on the dyno and a 2.5 on loan from a dealer.
Plus Chris will be still "around" MRT as he will continue to upgrade his Triton
:)

If anyone wants to fiddle or test with their triton, please contact your local EcuTek Tuner http://www.ecutek.com.au
As all EcuteK tuners are as keen as you to show how good this is.
its now available in
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Re: Closing the EGR Valve

Postby Eelesy on Sun Nov 28, 2010 9:16 am

I haven't been on here a while but can someone describe to me what they mean when they say 'limp mode"

engine light on and crawling pace? or seeming very under powered?

Mine does the latter every now and then. such as going uphill out of Perth and having to be flat foot in 3rd gear doing 60kph up the hill. and sometimes it is perfectly fine again if i stop, turn the engine off, then straight back on.
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Re: Closing the EGR Valve

Postby RHKTriton on Sun Nov 28, 2010 11:02 am

I've never had a limp mode due to the egr blanking ( sealed at manifold). My setup is blanked at manifold and I have wound up the boost to about 2/3 on the thread from original position. Have found that winding up all the way did cause a limpy.

I also have a switch to kill the throttle flap (which improves responsiveness ). This will generate a light but no limpy performance. Just recactivate the throttle and after a couple of runs the light goes out again. I still have to automate this process. I have thought about the run on that occurs with the flap disabled and concluded that its probably good to get rid of any residual fuel in the pots - eliminates oil dilution perhaps.
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Re: Closing the EGR Valve

Postby snowman on Sun Nov 28, 2010 12:35 pm

Eelesy wrote:I haven't been on here a while but can someone describe to me what they mean when they say 'limp mode"

engine light on and crawling pace? or seeming very under powered?

Mine does the latter every now and then. such as going uphill out of Perth and having to be flat foot in 3rd gear doing 60kph up the hill. and sometimes it is perfectly fine again if i stop, turn the engine off, then straight back on.



yes very underpowered. i can have limpies with no engine light (in fact most of them were). the other giveaway is the cruise control does not work if you have it factory fitted. when i had the EGR plate and no chip the car would hardly hold freeway speed on the flat and would slow on a slight incline. With the MRT tune it was much more powerful on a limpy but still significantly less power. All my limpies were EGR plate related.

turning the car off and back on resets it. The time you have it turned off does vary on what sort of reset. For example on and (say) 5 seconds off (like at traffic lights) can get your power back but not your cruise control.

i have no idea how long is 'long enough' to get it all back.

good to hear from you again 'saurus. 8-)
This car is like a bad drug habit. It is taking all my money and time, my family are concerned, but new mods just feel sooooooo good.
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Re: Closing the EGR Valve

Postby Eelesy on Sun Nov 28, 2010 6:04 pm

snowman wrote:

yes very underpowered. i can have limpies with no engine light (in fact most of them were). the other giveaway is the cruise control does not work if you have it factory fitted. when i had the EGR plate and no chip the car would hardly hold freeway speed on the flat and would slow on a slight incline.



Sounds EXACTLY whats been goin on with mine. so i guess ill have to read back on what the best fix is. whats the go? does a 6mm hole seem to work or should i just take it out?
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Re: Closing the EGR Valve

Postby mad992 on Sun Nov 28, 2010 7:17 pm

Eelesy wrote:
snowman wrote:

yes very underpowered. i can have limpies with no engine light (in fact most of them were). the other giveaway is the cruise control does not work if you have it factory fitted. when i had the EGR plate and no chip the car would hardly hold freeway speed on the flat and would slow on a slight incline.



Sounds EXACTLY whats been goin on with mine. so i guess ill have to read back on what the best fix is. whats the go? does a 6mm hole seem to work or should i just take it out?



sauraus ,
the 6mm hole has saved mine so far so good no limpys yet with hole in plate and catch can for good measure :)
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Re: Closing the EGR Valve

Postby GLX-R Alex on Wed Dec 01, 2010 6:45 pm

RHKTriton wrote:I've never had a limp mode due to the egr blanking ( sealed at manifold). My setup is blanked at manifold and I have wound up the boost to about 2/3 on the thread from original position. Have found that winding up all the way did cause a limpy.

I also have a switch to kill the throttle flap (which improves responsiveness ). This will generate a light but no limpy performance. Just recactivate the throttle and after a couple of runs the light goes out again. I still have to automate this process. I have thought about the run on that occurs with the flap disabled and concluded that its probably good to get rid of any residual fuel in the pots - eliminates oil dilution perhaps.


Ive been running with the whole throttle body literally unplugged now for the last 8 months or so. Yes i get a light on start up but i clear it with the scangauge. Never limped since in 30000km
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Re: Closing the EGR Valve

Postby aussteve on Sat Jan 08, 2011 7:56 pm

"i agree with your logic right up to the end.....

other options are - go a quality cranckcase vent (pro vent) and leave carbon flowing (it will stay dry and should not stick")

Hi There, have only just got a brand new MN MY11Triton & now freaking out about this as I hadn't seen, or looked for, this prior to purchase. Is it known, or believed, that a crankcase vent will avoid "limpies", can someone explain what these are please? Will it avoid error codes & what would the effect on the warranty be? I currently have only 877 kms. on the vehicle & want to find an effective, cost effective fix that will not cause any other detriment to the engine, perfromance or economy.
Has there been a definitive fix been found for this yet & what does Mitsubishi have to say about it & ongoing support?
Thanks all.
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Re: Closing the EGR Valve

Postby Cowboy Dave on Sat Jan 08, 2011 8:22 pm

If it clogs up Mitsubishi will clean it out for you. It will take you quite a long time for it to happen.

You won't get limp modes unless you block you EGR with a plate. The EGR is the recirculation of a portion of your exhaust gas back through the engine. This is done to meet emission standards.

The crankcase or PCV (positive crankcase ventilation) stuff that people are talking about it a short hose that runs from the top driver's side of your engine block into the top of your air intake hose which runs from the airbox. This contains an oily mist from pressurised crankcase vapours.

If you combine carbon from the exhaust and the oily mist then you can get sludge. And it is the sludge that eventually becomes a problem.

There are competing schools of thought on the best approach. I felt the easiest option of the various options was to filter the PCV vapour to take out the oil. Others take the view they don't want anything but air going into the air intake and therefore blank the EGR.

The PCV filter appears to be common on European diesels - the more expensive German ones as I understand it. A PCV filter (aka catchcan although not precisely the same in all cases) should not cause you any limp modes nor any warranty issues. An EGR plate may cause limp modes. There are potential ways around this but it's all too hard for one post.

Have a look around, enjoy, but don't let the negative stuff freak you out. It's just that people post their problems to get help so the negative stuff is over-represented. You've bought a top ute and don't let anyone tell you different.

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Re: Closing the EGR Valve

Postby sierra on Sun Jan 09, 2011 5:27 am

RHKTriton wrote:I've never had a limp mode due to the egr blanking ( sealed at manifold). My setup is blanked at manifold and I have wound up the boost to about 2/3 on the thread from original position. Have found that winding up all the way did cause a limpy.

I also have a switch to kill the throttle flap (which improves responsiveness ). This will generate a light but no limpy performance. Just recactivate the throttle and after a couple of runs the light goes out again. I still have to automate this process. I have thought about the run on that occurs with the flap disabled and concluded that its probably good to get rid of any residual fuel in the pots - eliminates oil dilution perhaps.


RHK, lots of moaning about limp modes from blanking plates but nobody seems to listen to the fact that the throttle flap is causing the vacuum that can get too high with the EGR blanked off. :(
I haven't disconnected my throttle flap since we discussed this before but only because the standard 2.5 doesn't seem to generate enough vacuum to trigger the fault.
If there was a switch that would activate from the signal to the speedo and dissable the throttle body only when the vehicle is moving it would solve the check engine light at start up and give a clean shut down.
Could you identify the wire from the throttle body connection that you put the switch on? :?
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Re: Closing the EGR Valve

Postby Longranger1 on Sun Jan 09, 2011 1:15 pm

With the MN as far as I can see there are only a few ways you could stop the limpies if you block the EGR.

Maybe Ecutek will eventually be able to write out the egr in the ecu, not as yet it would seem(well,not completely).

The other ways involve a bit of R&D. One idea I thought of was to prevent the MAP sensor from sending a too low a value to the ecu so negating the underboost fault code. This is do-able but tricky.
A freer flowing exhaust may also help by allowing earlier spool up to pressurise the intake.

Another radical way would be to have a supercharger (definately not the centrifugal type!) set-up similar to VW to provide pressurisation at low throttle settings as well as the existing turbo(compound turbo/supercharging). Bit of a wank, overly costly and complicated and no hope of warranty.
But.... It would provide excellent bottom end torque and response if tuned correctly. When under load the supercharger would be largely redundant so not really wasting drive energy (the turbo does the bulk of the charge air compression with the supercharger sort of going along for the ride). The trouble with this is the supercharger would probably provide more boost than necessary when not needed (although a positive displacement supercharger would only be essentially an air pump set up to provide say 3-4psi boost at all rpm's).
Only for those with a large amount of cash to experiment!

Since fault codes are fairly infrequent in my MN I'll just carry an OBD11 reader to clear the limp modes as they occur (about 1 every 2000kms at present).

Over to the techno geeks.
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Re: Closing the EGR Valve

Postby aussteve on Sun Jan 09, 2011 6:10 pm

Cowboy Dave wrote:If it clogs up Mitsubishi will clean it out for you. It will take you quite a long time for it to happen.

You won't get limp modes unless you block you EGR with a plate. The EGR is the recirculation of a portion of your exhaust gas back through the engine. This is done to meet emission standards.

The crankcase or PCV (positive crankcase ventilation) stuff that people are talking about it a short hose that runs from the top driver's side of your engine block into the top of your air intake hose which runs from the airbox. This contains an oily mist from pressurised crankcase vapours.

If you combine carbon from the exhaust and the oily mist then you can get sludge. And it is the sludge that eventually becomes a problem.

There are competing schools of thought on the best approach. I felt the easiest option of the various options was to filter the PCV vapour to take out the oil. Others take the view they don't want anything but air going into the air intake and therefore blank the EGR.

The PCV filter appears to be common on European diesels - the more expensive German ones as I understand it. A PCV filter (aka catchcan although not precisely the same in all cases) should not cause you any limp modes nor any warranty issues. An EGR plate may cause limp modes. There are potential ways around this but it's all too hard for one post.

Have a look around, enjoy, but don't let the negative stuff freak you out. It's just that people post their problems to get help so the negative stuff is over-represented. You've bought a top ute and don't let anyone tell you different.

And welcome.


Thanks Cowboy Dave for your reassuring comments, I felt I had researched all available vehicles prior to our purchase but didn't become aware of this issue. To date we love the vehicle and have had a Razorback canopy fitted, speedliner put in & a tow pack. Now for the reversing camera, the XYL feels she will be more confident with one in so who am I to argue, especially if it prevents a coming together with somewthing of a non giving nature?
I intend ringing Mitsubishi tomorrow & will be asking for their feelings about catch cans being fitted.
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Re: Closing the EGR Valve

Postby Adam ace on Tue Jan 11, 2011 2:58 pm

Thanks Cowboy Dave,
well said, PCV catch can for me after removing inlet manifold hose and seeing oily residue/sludge :(
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Re: Closing the EGR Valve

Postby Longranger1 on Sun Apr 10, 2011 6:39 pm

Well, I have been thinking about the MN limp mode problem when the EGR is blanked. One solution involves a little electrical jiggery-pokery which has the EGR servo operating a very small relay (preferably a solid state relay to prevent inductive spikes) which keeps it electrically separated from the absolute manifold pressure sensor (AMPS).
The EGR when operating will close the relay contacts which are series wired with a resistor to slightly change the voltage output of the AMPS so that when the EGR operates the sensor output to a corresponding value of say 105 kPa (instead of 99-100 kPa).
The beauty of this is that when the vehicle is operating in a non EGR enabling parameter, the AMPS is completely normal so no limp modes are created.

The second idea I had was to relocate the absolute manifold pressure sensor line upstream of the throttle flap valve. This negates the P0299 turbo underboost fault due to the low manifold pressure because the EGR is blanked and the throttle flap is restricting the intake so as to draw in exhaust gases. The logical place for the line pick up would be the black steel bend which goes through the radiator support panel. I am stuffed if I know why I didn't think of this earlier - is this a cure that is too simple? Am I missing something here? The former idea has merit but how hard would the second be? Piece of piss I reckon 8-) .

Any ideas Uber Techs :?:
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Re: Closing the EGR Valve

Postby RHKTriton on Mon Apr 11, 2011 12:23 am

Second idea...pure genius!

I've tee'd my wastegate actuator into the MAP line, but how about simply plugging the MAP into the wastegate feed port, ie. simply swap the two lines, wastegate to MAP port and MAP to Wastegate feed port in compressor. Just requires some extra hose.
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Re: Closing the EGR Valve

Postby Longranger1 on Mon Apr 11, 2011 6:34 pm

RHKTriton wrote:Second idea...pure genius!

I've tee'd my wastegate actuator into the MAP line, but how about simply plugging the MAP into the wastegate feed port, ie. simply swap the two lines, wastegate to MAP port and MAP to Wastegate feed port in compressor. Just requires some extra hose.


EDIT: Don't do it! The VGT is a different animal to most turbo set ups as the boost is controlled by a vacuum operated dashpot which is plumbed to a suction control valve which is then connected to the vacuum pump. The suction control valve for the turbo VG is in turn controlled by the ECU. Connecting the MAP sensor line to the VGT dashpot line will set you up for a lot of grief!

The boost is controlled by the Variable Geometry vanes on the turbine housing which changes the angle and amount the exhaust gas impinges on the turbine wheel.

Another spin off from the relocation of the absolute manifold pressure sensor pickup could be a substantial reduction in throttle lag. This would allow the fuelling to increase a little more quickly because the boost pressure values would be registered quicker. The reason for this is the throttle flap valve delay in opening delaying boost increase and consequent fuelling (pretty much an anti-smoke device in operation although it is probably written in the ecu programming).
Please note this is all theoretical at the moment. I will try the sensor pickup relocation trick when time permits.

I don't wish to interfere with the throttle flap valve too much either(I don't want any fault codes regarding it). It will remain in play for a smoother shut down and start up. Those who have disconnected it, have you noticed any difference on shutdown? Just curious.
Last edited by Longranger1 on Sat Apr 16, 2011 7:36 am, edited 2 times in total.
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MN turbo lag? What lag??

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Re: Closing the EGR Valve

Postby RHKTriton on Tue Apr 12, 2011 12:12 am

Keep forgetting about the VGT in the MN.

If the tune was like on my old Vito then the 2.5s should go like stink just off idle!
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Re: Closing the EGR Valve

Postby Longranger1 on Sat Apr 16, 2011 7:40 am

RHK check out my previous post re: wastegate lines.
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Re: Closing the EGR Valve

Postby argustuft on Wed Apr 20, 2011 9:12 pm

Hi all,
been following this thread with interest. I have an ML 3.2 and had the blank plate in till few days ago when the dash light lit up so ppulled the blank plate and punched a 5-6 mm hole in it refit and the light went imediately.
So had been thinking .. why not fit a blank plate then have a 6-10mm hole (adjustable) with pipe fitting in the pipe to the EGR valve fed either from the air box (clean air) or a suiable filter fitted to the pipe fittiing. Seeing as you need a small amount of air pressure to stop these dash lights and limp modes and being a small fitting hole size it would work through the EGR but feed clean air in, in a small amount.
cheers
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