Oils aint Oils

Discussion on servicing, engine oils, gearbox oils, diff oils etc

Re: Oils aint Oils

Postby leonbee on Thu Dec 10, 2015 2:31 pm

sal_troy wrote:Hi,

Does anyone use or recommend Gulf Western Top Dog XDO 15w40 in their mn triton. This is specified on the web site for the tritons. Seems to be readily available and reasonably priced from supercheap.

Cheers
sal_troy


Gulf western is a repetitively new Australian player, the additive package is not the best compared to some other experienced players like Caltex and Penrite,

http://www.gulfwestern.com.au/
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Re: Oils aint Oils

Postby sal_troy on Sat Dec 19, 2015 3:26 pm

Ok thanks Leonbee. Maybe I will just stick with Shell Rimula R4X 15w40 as my dealer uses?
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Re: Oils aint Oils

Postby leonbee on Sun Dec 20, 2015 9:38 am

sal_troy wrote:Ok thanks Leonbee. Maybe I will just stick with Shell Rimula R4X 15w40 as my dealer uses?


Shell is a good drop, they just does not have aggressive marketing. I personally would not leave any mineral oil in for the full 15000km. if you are changing the oil well before it’s scheduled break down it’s fine. A 7500km dump.

I personally do not bother to change the filter as my theory is clean oil is going in so the oil filter is not working as hard. Each to their own :)
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Re: Oils aint Oils

Postby RHKTriton on Sun Dec 20, 2015 11:38 am

Job half done...twice as often.......leonbee? :lol:

Topping up the additives at least.
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Re: Oils aint Oils

Postby leonbee on Sun Dec 20, 2015 12:20 pm

RHKTriton wrote:Job half done...twice as often.......leonbee? :lol:

Topping up the additives at least.


It's more about removing the carbon from the combustion and the EGR suspended in the oil well before the oil becomes to contaminated and breaks down.
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Re: Oils aint Oils

Postby leonbee on Sun Dec 20, 2015 12:30 pm

A Fully synthetic for the full 15000km service. It should keep the carbon suspended without slugging and keep the engine lubricated. Expensive

A quality mineral oil and dump half way 7500km to remove the carbon from the engine oil to prevent sludge and well before the mineral oil is scheduled to breaks down.

To do the job properly you need to do an engine flush with a double oil dump then add a new filter but a bit over kill for a short service interval. Good every 50 or 100,000km to clean the engine up.
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Re: Oils aint Oils

Postby murwullambah on Sun Dec 20, 2015 3:07 pm

Just been looking at the owners manual and in the temps we run in Perth virtually all oil sold is within spec
even good old 20-50, so would Shell Helix HX3 be ok, i have been running semi synthetic and changing every 5000 or so
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Re: Oils aint Oils

Postby L200Shogun on Tue Dec 22, 2015 10:15 am

I know CF and CF4 are different grades of oil. Both are for Diesels. CF4 or better is speced for a MN.
Does anyone know if it is ok to use CF spec?

From what I can see CF was more for non CRD type engines or without emission controls.

I have no plans to buy this grade oil. Just for my knowledge.
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Re: Oils aint Oils

Postby L200Shogun on Tue Dec 22, 2015 10:34 am

murwullambah wrote:Just been looking at the owners manual and in the temps we run in Perth virtually all oil sold is within spec
even good old 20-50, so would Shell Helix HX3 be ok, i have been running semi synthetic and changing every 5000 or so


Shell Helix HX3 is API SL/CF
http://www.supercheapauto.com.au/online ... mendations

Shell Helix HX5 is API SN/CF, ACEA A3/B3
http://www.supercheapauto.com.au/online ... mendations

The owners handbook (p8.9) lists A3/B3 as a suitable spec oil. Out of those two HX5 would be the better choice. I would buy something completely different.
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Re: Oils aint Oils

Postby NowForThe5th on Tue Dec 22, 2015 10:40 am

Shogun the CF & CF4 classifications are obsolete and have been for 20 years. Just goes to show how up to date our engines are. :roll:

CF was a spec for indirect injection diesel while CF4 was for high speed direct injection diesels

I recall reading a linked article, fairly recently, about why we should be using lighter grade, multigrade oils due to the viscosity changes. It was always my understanding, murwillumbah, that a 20W-50 oil really is too heavy for both the 4M41 and the 4D56T, unless warranted by advanced engine wear. Certainly a 20W-50 made a huge difference to the performance (by way of reduction) to the 6G72s and 6G75s that I've owned. Turned them into sluggards. I wouldn't think that it would be ideal for the diesel either.

If you've been running semi-synthetic then, unless operating in severe service conditions, there is no reason why you couldn't extend the oil change interval to 10,000km. That's what I do with my Pajero.
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Re: Oils aint Oils

Postby L200Shogun on Tue Dec 22, 2015 10:47 am

NowForThe5th wrote:Shogun the CF & CF4 classifications are obsolete and have been for 20 years. Just goes to show how up to date our engines are. :roll:

CF was a spec for indirect injection diesel while CF4 was for high speed direct injection diesels

...snip..


L200Shogun wrote:...snip..I have no plans to buy this grade oil. Just for my knowledge


I know this. Just increasing my knowledge base.
The question was is CF ok to use?


What spare parts will sell you.

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Re: Oils aint Oils

Postby L200Shogun on Tue Dec 22, 2015 10:54 am

,
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Re: Oils aint Oils

Postby NowForThe5th on Tue Dec 22, 2015 10:57 am

Yep.

The problem is then determining which current, or near current specification will still meet that old classification. Certainly they will all exceed it but sometimes the new, improved additive packages can have an adverse effect on the performance of the oil in an older spec engine. Probably the most extreme example of this would be the use of multigrade oils in a small engine like a Briggs & Stratton which is designed for a monograde oil. Disastrous.

Best thing is to go to the web site of the oil manufacturer that you prefer and take their recommendation. Invariably it will be overkill but at least you know that you'll be safe.
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Re: Oils aint Oils

Postby leonbee on Tue Dec 22, 2015 4:37 pm

The way I see it. The manufacturer uses the minimum requirements CF. Also the user manual states CF or above. The dealer also uses this guideline to meet Mitsi servicing requirements. Its most likely the engine will still get a few hundred with this oil when serviced.

Maybe this basic oil is cheaper so better profits for the manufacturer and just to meet the warranty period. You are also advised to change the oil at earlier intervals for extreme driving which from what I can tell is normal driving.
I suppose an independent oil test after 15,oo0 service would be the only way to see if the oil is still performing at 15000km.

You can also see you only get what u pay for. The better the retail oil the more it costs. Capped price servicing is to keep servicing costs down for customers while still maintaining a worth while profit for the dealer. So again the dealer buys bulk the cheapest oil they can find that meets or is better then CF.

So u need to change your cheaper oil more often before its scheduled break down or pay up for the top dollar fully synthetic and leave it in for 15000km.
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Re: Oils aint Oils

Postby NowForThe5th on Tue Dec 22, 2015 5:07 pm

Largely true, leonbee. The problem for those not in the know about oils is which oil, better than CF is the right oil? My understanding is that after CF there was something of a fork in specifications. So now there are oils that are suitable for indirect injection, direct injection and another that must only be used with DPF equipped vehicles. Yet all, technically, exceed the CF specification.

Many of the oil companies are taking the safe route by saying that only their full synthetics are suitable but in most cases that is probably going too far, certainly, as you say, if change intervals are reduced.

While cost may be an indicator of quality, it isn't the final arbiter. There are plenty of very good oils out there that are economically priced. Most of it has to do with the skills of the chemist that formulates the additive package and the quality of the base stock.
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Re: Oils aint Oils

Postby snakesoup on Tue Dec 22, 2015 8:21 pm

what oil you running mr 5th?
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Re: Oils aint Oils

Postby murwullambah on Tue Dec 22, 2015 10:20 pm

So when you visit Valvoline site one of the top oils they recomend is Engine armour 10w 40 semi synthetic and yet they sell a diesel specific engine armour at soupy cheapy so why is it not recomended on their website very confusing.
Needless to say the ordinary engine armour can be had cheaper on special.
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Re: Oils aint Oils

Postby Cowboy Dave on Tue Dec 22, 2015 11:38 pm

Yeah but there are many different types of Diesel engine. Turbo, common rail, dpf, old style direct injection, big trucks and probably tonnes more I can't think of. Not saying all of the above are types of engine but the different combinations effectively mean you can't just lump all Diesel engines into one category.

The website oil selectors do tend to try and sell you their top spec most expensive oils but usually have a second and sometimes third option.

I've also found the little oil recommender computer at supercheap interesting to play around with. I haven't followed its choices yet but it has recommended some oils that I've used in the past based on my own research/tastes.
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Re: Oils aint Oils

Postby leonbee on Wed Dec 23, 2015 6:43 am

NowForThe5th wrote:Largely true, leonbee.

While cost may be an indicator of quality, it isn't the final arbiter. There are plenty of very good oils out there that are economically priced. Most of it has to do with the skills of the chemist that formulates the additive package and the quality of the base stock.


My understanding is fully synthetic oils was designed to be able to clean and keep the soot in suspension while still maintaining excellent lubricity. Also an advantage of good heat handling capabilities. Jumping on the greeny band wagaon as better for the environment and longer oil change intervals. They are to expensive or not cost effective.

The manufactures trying to get an edge on competition offering 15000km services. The dealers are not using fully synthetic oil for servicing. Despite the improvement in mineral oil additive packages, I would not leave a mineral oil in my diesel truck for 15000km, due to the soot load.

I might be old school with the idea of 10000km max oil change. I change the oil 7500km before the oil reaches its saturation point at 10000km.

I have not seen a mineral oil stating long drain intervals. This may be the problem.
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Re: Oils aint Oils

Postby L200Shogun on Wed Dec 23, 2015 7:40 am

leonbee wrote:...snip...

I have not seen a mineral oil stating long drain intervals. This may be the problem.


Something like Castrol Vecton (recommended for trucks) has drain intervals up to 60 000km granted in a truck that might only be a few months.

Oil sampling takes the guess work out of oil changes.

Oil companies want you to buy oil often.

I remember as a kid one of the Mobil car oils was sold as 12 months or 20000km. Then they worked out they could sell 4 times as much oil with 5000km drain intervals.

I had an Uncle who got tired of wasting money on oil. With oil sampling he worked out he could do changes every 14000km In fact the oil was still in spec at 18000km (that would have been less than 12 months)
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Re: Oils aint Oils

Postby leonbee on Wed Dec 23, 2015 10:36 am

L200Shogun wrote:
leonbee wrote:...snip...

Oil sampling takes the guess work out of oil changes.

I had an Uncle who got tired of wasting money on oil. With oil sampling he worked out he could do changes every 14000km In fact the oil was still in spec at 18000km (that would have been less than 12 months)


Interesting that the log book maintenance requires the oil be changed at 12 months regardless of km. Again no mention of this on oil packaging labels. Something to do with moisture in the oil I was told. Is it an urban myth. :?:

I agree it could be all hype for oil companies to make more money..To sell u more oil

Most trucks and some vehicles are fitted with oil drain alerts. Not sure how accurate they are, maybe just monitors oil pressure. As you said an oil sample would be the best way to cut through the hype and determine the quality of the oil your using and then stick with that oil.
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Re: Oils aint Oils

Postby NowForThe5th on Wed Dec 23, 2015 11:50 am

snakesoup wrote:what oil you running mr 5th?


Valvoline semi synthetic with 10,000km changes.

leonbee wrote:I have not seen a mineral oil stating long drain intervals.


Amoco LDO (Long Drain Oil) - introduced around 1976 IIRC.

L200Shogun wrote:I remember as a kid one of the Mobil car oils was sold as 12 months or 20000km. Then they worked out they could sell 4 times as much oil with 5000km drain intervals.


I disagree. Having spent 15 years in the oil industry I can assure you that our interest was actually to save the customer money by extending oil change intervals while maintaining performance and wear within acceptable limits. That way we retained the customer which was far better than trying to convince him to change more often and increase our sales, only until one of the competitors came in and proved that he could save money by using a better oil with extended drain intervals. Major fleet customers use one hell of a lot of oil. The retail market is relatively small by comparison. ;)

It isn't the oil companies that are promoting shorter drain intervals. The dealers have much more to gain by charging you through the nose to get the apprentice to do a very simple job. That combined with owners who all seem to think that what they do is "severe service" to justify having a "truck" and having to change the oil more often. The reality is more like the example of your uncle who proved that he could extend oil change intervals to 18,000km with minimal risk.
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Re: Oils aint Oils

Postby coughy on Wed Dec 23, 2015 3:45 pm

leonbee wrote:
L200Shogun wrote:
leonbee wrote:...snip...

Oil sampling takes the guess work out of oil changes.

I had an Uncle who got tired of wasting money on oil. With oil sampling he worked out he could do changes every 14000km In fact the oil was still in spec at 18000km (that would have been less than 12 months)


Interesting that the log book maintenance requires the oil be changed at 12 months regardless of km. Again no mention of this on oil packaging labels. Something to do with moisture in the oil I was told. Is it an urban myth. :?:

I agree it could be all hype for oil companies to make more money..To sell u more oil

Most trucks and some vehicles are fitted with oil drain alerts. Not sure how accurate they are, maybe just monitors oil pressure. As you said an oil sample would be the best way to cut through the hype and determine the quality of the oil your using and then stick with that oil.


no it isnt a urban myth i have seen it first hand
yet again part of my day to to job oils and batterys lol

so yes it must be changed every 12 months or the mositure in ther syatm will start eating your internals ie rusting and piting the surface of things that dont and shouldnt have that sort of stuff there
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Re: Oils aint Oils

Postby leonbee on Wed Dec 23, 2015 6:39 pm

What about oil filtration. No improvements here. Long drain intervals I would think the filter is going to get saturated with soot load and by pass reducing engine protection.
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Re: Oils aint Oils

Postby coughy on Sun Mar 06, 2016 8:23 am

ok so can anyone tell me this
i just changed my oil in the truck and i have got this oil and a good price for 20ltrs $135

http://www.synforce.com.au/diesel_engine_oil.html
it is the 4th one down it is made here in brissy local company which i like to support if i can

Diesel LOGIC ... is a Semi Synthetic medium ash (1.49%) SAE 15w/40, CI-4plus/SL diesel oil that has been formulated using the finest group 2 Paraffinic and Synthetic base stocks and additives available, resulting in an advanced Heavy Duty Diesel Engine Oil designed to meet the requirements of API CI-4plus, European ACEA E5-99, Caterpillar ECF-1, Jaso DH-1 and Cummins CES 20078, as well as meeting or exceeding many other specifications.

i was looking at this oil
Cruiser Oil 1540 ... is a semi Synthetic engine oil
made by them but i believe that this is better for my car

now this is the first time i have used a semi syn oil
it is dark like malasis golden syrup ??? is normaly like this??
engine seems to be quiter straight of the bat after a start with new oil in there????
will take for a test drive soon and see if any different in noise rattle from the old donk... :mrgreen:
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