Random Suspension Questions

[mattz]

Macca check this thread out.
viewtopic.php?t=6252

[macca002]

Macca check this thread out.
viewtopic.php?t=6252

Cheers mattz. I figured someone would have had an attempt at doing this, I just couldn't for the life of me find a search result that pointed me in the right direction.

Now if only the local 4x4 suspension places would take the 'leap of faith' and produce something like this for the Triton, as they do with the other 4x4 makes. I honestly believe that the market is there due to the number of Tritons I see on the road.

[4wd26]

Really depends on whether you want to remain legal.
extended shackles will give more droop, limit then is the shocks, ultimate extended brake lines, and you dont have to worry about the ABS lines as they head across the diff and up in the middle to the connection, basic geometry says that the movement here is minimised in comparrison to the wheel

if you are looking at changing mounts, you might as well look into (search not here) inverting the shocks and inward mounting them. You get (again from geometry) longer shocks which in turn gives a longer open length/ suspension travel

anyway there is lots of information on how to get better travel from a leaf sprun vehicle, the limits are when you want both load carrying and travel

[DocBassett]

I am all for pioneering. Kudos to Macca for pushing boundaries. Yes the tritons are very capable, but imagine what they'd be like if the suspension was improved even more (after buying aftermarket naturally )! Good to see someone thinking outside the box. I still don't understand why certain people on here continually shut people down for suggesting further improvements or modifications. I'm all for doing as much as possible. Not everyone has to have the same truck set up.

[DocBassett]

That sounds interesting 4wd26. I've often wondered about having a set up like that. Lucky I'm now too poor to bother.

[snowman]

......European embers......i'm having a shocker.

thanks Mattz. that's him. Stefanos the Greek.

[macca002]

Really depends on whether you want to remain legal.
extended shackles will give more droop, limit then is the shocks, ultimate extended brake lines, and you dont have to worry about the ABS lines as they head across the diff and up in the middle to the connection, basic geometry says that the movement here is minimised in comparrison to the wheel

if you are looking at changing mounts, you might as well look into (search not here) inverting the shocks and inward mounting them. You get (again from geometry) longer shocks which in turn gives a longer open length/ suspension travel

anyway there is lots of information on how to get better travel from a leaf sprun vehicle, the limits are when you want both load carrying and travel

4wd26 - Thanks for the heads up about the ABS line location. Extended shackles are not illegal in the NT - something I covered previously in another thread, however given the feedback I got, are illegal in other states. The relocation of leaf mounts therefore steers clear of having to use longer chackles - and given the sign off from an engineer would make the vehicle roadworthy.

I am seriously considering putting in a TAC application for the relocation of leaf hangers. Even though I am not thinking about doing this in the short term, I am sure someone on here would benefit in the response I get back from an engineer regarding what would be required for their sign off.

You would be surprised at what you can do on a 4x4 which only requires an engineer to cast an eye on what has been done before they will happily plate your vehicle.

My previous 4x4 had 100% TAC approval for custom leaf pack/longer shackle/inverted shocks with the only requirement being that I had to run my 4x4 over the pits every 12 months AND have the initial MVR pit inspection once the mods were complete to ensure they were done in a safe manner. Which is something I was happy with/ It was only when I wanted to relocate the hangers OR lift higher than 4" in total did an engineer want to check welds to ensure they were done safely.
- I suspect that if I were to keep the lift at 2" and do the hanger relocation that TAC would approve upon inspection or approve upon inspection and engineer plating.

It was only when I put the TAC application in for a greater than 4" lift, was the recommendation given that I had an engineer look over the 4x4 and also do a lane change test - Total cost $75 for mod plate and $250 for the lane change.

I sold my 4x4 before I had a chance to do these and picked up the Triton instead.

[snowman]

This mod has been proven to provide awesome gains for other makes of IFS/Leaf rear 4x4's so given that someone has actually jumped under the Triton and measured it up - there is real potential here for doing this kind of mod.

it would actually be a good trial on a 'drivable wreck'. maybe a rollover we can cut the roof off and do some of this stuff being strictly off road.

[macca002]

This mod has been proven to provide awesome gains for other makes of IFS/Leaf rear 4x4's so given that someone has actually jumped under the Triton and measured it up - there is real potential here for doing this kind of mod.

it would actually be a good trial on a 'drivable wreck'. maybe a rollover we can cut the roof off and do some of this stuff being strictly off road.

I am not putting my hands up for offering a wreck to test on - but there are a number of hilux's running the locktup gear and they kept their original hangers in place so they always had the option to convert back when it came time to sell...OR they were just too lazy to lop off the old hangers

The R&D has already been done for the IFS/Leaf rear 4x4's on other models, so the option to move this over to the Triton is a real possibility.

As for donating things, I am all for donating my 4x4 for uniball control arms AND the beers required for helping me swing the spanners when installing them - true story.

[DocBassett]

Any takers to roll their car so snowy can have a trial run?

[Tritonwreckers]

I offered a rolling chassis (complete with upper and lower control arms and factory struts) and rear diff and factory leaf springs and shocks to MR for development testing and did not get a reply

I still have that chassis available, intact for the moment, but have plans to dismantle in the next few weeks, and clear some room.

I found that a real shame, and might have to do some development work on this side of things myself, as there is a need/ market

[snowman]

seems no doubt we have the skills if we have the chassis. however can it be tested purely on a chassis alone?

My point is the geometry can be set up but it is a bit hard to test in a driving environment.

[macca002]

Rang the local TAC and the guy was very nice on the phone. I have found that most of the people on the TAC committee are car/4x4 enthusiasts, which is great.

Here is a copy of what I was emailed - basically as I thought, relocating hangers requires TAC inspection and possibly a welding certificate, which really is not a big deal if it means it keeps your 4x4 both safe and legal:

Section LS Tyres, Rims, Suspension and Steering

1 SCOPE
This Section outlines the minimum design, installation and fabrication requirements for the
following light vehicle modifications involving tyres, rims, suspension and steering.

1.1 BASIC MODIFICATIONS NOT REQUIRING TAC/ENGINEERING CERTIFICATION
The following modifications may be performed without certification if they are carried out in
accordance with sub-section 2
General Requirements
and the total change in vehicle height
resulting from all modifications performed, does not exceed 50mm.
•Tyre and rim substitution carried out within the limits specified in this Section;
•Lowering and raising suspensions (by not more than one third of the original
suspension travel provided the original vehicle height is not increased or decreased by
more than 100mm);
•Raising the vehicle with a body lift kit provided the original vehicle height is not
increased by more than 50mm (refer to sub-section 4.11 for conditions and limitations);
•Shock absorber substitution;
•Extended suspension shackles provided the original vehicle height is not increased by more than 50mm;
•Spring and sway bar substitution;
•Track rod and strut brace installation;
•Steering wheel substitution (refer to sub-section 4.9 of this Section); and
•Power steering (manufacturer’s option) conversion.

Note:
In NSW, although vehicles whose height has been changed up to 50mm do not
require certification by an engineering signatory, the registration authority must be
notified of the modification.
Extended suspension shackles are also illegal in some other states in Australia.

1.2 MODIFICATIONS REQUIRING TAC CERTIFICATION UNDER SECTION LS – BUT NO ENGINEERING CERTIFICATION
The following modifications require certification under the LS Codes;
•Steering and suspension modifications;
•Suspension strut or upright substitution (ie: suspension inverting);
•Rear axle substitution; and
•Raising the vehicle beyond 50mm but not more than 150mm.

1.3 MODIFICATIONS REQUIRING TAC CERTIFICATION UNDER SECTION LS – AND ENGINEERING CERTIFICATION
•Left to right hand drive steering conversions;
•Power steering (non-standard) conversion;
•Rack and pinion steering conversion;

1.4 MODIFICATIONS NOT COVERED UNDER SECTION LS
•Vehicle lifts that exceed 150mm: Raising vehicles beyond 150mm is not covered
under this Code of Practice.
•Vehicle Lifts to any Vehicle that has had its track reduced: Vehicles that have had a
track reduction will need to be assessed on a case-by-case basis.
•Remote Steering Systems: Steering systems that operate without complete
mechanical connection (such as hydraulic or electric actuation) are not covered in this
Code of Practice.
•Steering Wheels Fitted with Integral Airbags:VSB 14 does not cover steering
wheels fitted with air bags.
•Installation of Variable Air or Hydraulic Suspension Systems: Installation of non-
original suspension systems that allow the ride-height of the vehicle to be varied by the
driver are not covered under this Code of Practice.

This is based on the National Code of Practice for Light Vehicle Construction and Modification - therefore rules apply across all of Aus

[macca002]

Just to clarify - TAC is basically a visual engineering inspection of components (and your whole vehicle) and you get to keep a green slip in your glovebox of all TAC approved modifications - Cost is standard MVR inspection fee of around $33. No cost for TAC applications.

Engineering certification is one step more where an engineer will put a mod plate on your vehicle. This usually comes at cost starting around $75 for the first mod on the plate, and then increases accordingly. - that is, if the engineer doesnt need to do anything but look around. If they need to do more testing, such as lane change test/brake test/emissions test/etc then it obviously costs more money.

I suspect TAC in other states would be similar to having an engineer look over the vehicle and stick a mod plate on

[mIwoo]

Hi bigbill

When I bought my mn couple odd years ago i had a bullbar and lights put on it. i reckon it took 6-8 months for it to sag. Its only been in the last year or so ive been put off by it (after 50k kms). So i've only just recently got hold of some new-ish HD springs to bring it back to normal height with bullbar on. ill put them on shortly and see how they go. Ideally you should replace the shocks too to match the springs, i am not however, as i'll be using relatively newish springs to replace mine. The reason for me is this is a temp fix until i get the whole kit and coboodle from ULTIMATE next year. I need time to save coin. If you are thinking long term then just go straight to the whole kit. I am going ULTIMATE not because everyone here rates it, but because (almost) everyone here who has tried other big name suspension kits replaced theirs with ultimate.- and are significantly happier for the same... that there tells me a lot about them. Plus I am of the opinion their customer service is bloody excellent. So for my bet, if i didnt have the current stuff I have now, I would order ultimate's HD kit. For my current situation I will be installing Ridepro's HD springs. If you look into the suspension section you will see lots topics about suspension... its worth having a read.

Does that answer your question?

Cheers

[al coholic]

I am all for pioneering. Kudos to Macca for pushing boundaries. Yes the tritons are very capable, but imagine what they'd be like if the suspension was improved even more (after buying aftermarket naturally )! Good to see someone thinking outside the box. I still don't understand why certain people on here continually shut people down for suggesting further improvements or modifications. I'm all for doing as much as possible. Not everyone has to have the same truck set up.

Im all for pushing the boundaries too, we all want the most out of our 4wd when heading off road

I read those comments you refer to not as shutting macca down, but pointing out that money and time would be better spent elsewhere.....from people who have owned these vehicles for a very long time


Macca, I can appreciate your interest in more travel for the rear and getting the most out of your truck........but until you can get the front end to work anywhere near as much as the rear does ATM.......you are seriously wasting your time. You will not be any better off than anyone else is now Only that you will have invested alot of time and money.
(Plus......i may be wrong here.......but i cant see you driving down to NSW all the time for some decent tracks so you can get the most out of your new set up )

Seriously though........Having seen large groups of Tritons off road on numerous occasions, i can absolutely guarantee it is the front end letting you down if you are loosing traction. Hence the reason so many people opt for a front locker. Front wheel lifts....you still have drive


But rest assured, your IFS Triton will still be able to play with the big cruisers and Patrols and show 'em how its done.

[macca002]

Cheers Al coholic.
Already working on getting the front end moving with an emailed fired off to Monsters, as well as a new thread for others interested.

Here is a link:
viewtopic.php?f=55&t=14571

Locker is already on the cards and will happen before any suspension work is done. The rear hanger info was more of an FYI for others at this stage, the UCA's on the other hand are all for what I want - along with some adjustable coilovers

Ideally what I would eventually want is the Monsters Ride front with a locktup flex kit rear.

As for the cost of doing this, well the 2" rear flex kit is only $1200. Add the cost of engineering and welder with welding cert, and you still come out under $1500.
- which really isnt a big investment for the returns you get.

As for getting the front to work, well hopefully Monster Rides can provide the solution to the problem. I suspect there would be quite a bit of interest on the forum about their products.

[4wd26]

^^^ there always has been a lot of interest, main problem has been getting them to commit to supplying the triton market with bits

http://www.newtriton.net/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=55&t=9973&p=212358&hilit=market#p212358

didn't endear members to support someone that by there own admission didn't want to support us?

[macca002]

^^^ there always has been a lot of interest, main problem has been getting them to commit to supplying the triton market with bits

http://www.newtriton.net/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=55&t=9973&p=212358&hilit=market#p212358

didn't endear members to support someone that by there own admission didn't want to support us?

I see your point, however this was a couple of years ago now. Since then I believe that the Triton has become a much more popular 4x4 - to the point where I am seeing almost as many of these on the road as the Hilux

Hopefully MR does put the R&D into the Triton - but I guess they will only do so if they get enough people bugging them...

[macca002]

Also - does anyone have or able to share some RTI numbers from their aftermarket suspension setups?
Aiming to get some digits of stock Triton in the next weekend or so, and would be great to have something for comparison.

Cheers and appreciated

[4wd26]

yep hope they have pushed the hilux development far enough to target the forgotten triton

I like your plan of attack, but the coil overs and upper control arms need to be done holistically- with diff drop to maintain cv angles.

that seems to be the limiting factor with lifts ATM

Can run around 2.5" of lift (can fit 34" tyres or 850mm diameter with the right offset) but start busting up cv's

I've taken mine back down to 2" to protect the cv angle

working on other things ATM, my progress in offroading the triton suspension is the need to make it capable of also towing over 2 tonne of offroad van.

would love 2 tritons like snowman or even a touring pajero like alco
then I could go nuts on the triton

[mattz]

I thought they had a thread on the UCAs.......or maybe it was in a suspension thread it theirs, which may have be moderated.
I know I posted in it, asking if there was any progress with them and never got a reply.
It was in the last 18 months or so.
They were saying to were "in development" to compliment their adjustable front struts.

Edit: I tried finding it earlier today but couldn't.

[ultimate]

But rest assured, your IFS Triton will still be able to play with the big cruisers and Patrols and show 'em how its done.

I love independent vehicles and have pushed many of them to the limits. The fact I've driven home from "nearly" every four wheel drive trip is a miracle.

Dealing with all types of four wheels drives, I can't help but wonder if the cost vs. benefit is really there with a lot of the new independent vehicles. The Triton is incredibly capable with a 2" lift, lockers and tyres. Personally I believe if you need more than that, you are taking the vehicle places where it shouldn't be. I must admit, I enjoy watching and participating in this, but I don't have the bank balance to continue doing it.

Recently all of the younger staff here at Ultimate acquired old solid axle vehicles (e.g. old hiluxs, 60 series, 80 series and an xj cherokee). I myself even traded shocks for a GQ and am restoring it at the moment. My total expenditure on this vehicle will be just over $6k + time. That's a 4" lift (engineered), 33's, front lokka, sliders, low profile rear bar, plus lots of engine and driveline parts. The end result will be a vehicle that is extremely capable and will go most places without fear of damage.

If someone asked me whether I would rather spend $17K on a SAS for my Hilux or on an old 4WD, I know what I would choose. I love driving my Hilux off road but there are too many weak points (e.g. clutch, diff mounts, CV's, Diff Housings, Spindles, Transfer). If I damage $4K worth of parts off road in the GQ; I get $4K worth of upgraded components to make it stronger and more reliable. If I do the same amount of damage in the Hilux, I get $4K worth of repairs to get it back to where it was.

Just my thoughts and experience.

The $900 XJ and bartered GQ

[macca002]

yep hope they have pushed the hilux development far enough to target the forgotten triton

I like your plan of attack, but the coil overs and upper control arms need to be done holistically- with diff drop to maintain cv angles.

that seems to be the limiting factor with lifts ATM

Can run around 2.5" of lift (can fit 34" tyres or 850mm diameter with the right offset) but start busting up cv's

I've taken mine back down to 2" to protect the cv angle

working on other things ATM, my progress in offroading the triton suspension is the need to make it capable of also towing over 2 tonne of offroad van.

would love 2 tritons like snowman or even a touring pajero like alco
then I could go nuts on the triton

Diff drop would definitely be something to keep an eye out for for those wanting the full range of movement without busting a CV. On my previous 4x4 I did all of these things myself and some direction from TAC about what I could/couldnt do. Ended up with 3" lift in the front with 10mm BJ spacers (cheap/nasty way of doing UCA's) and 1" diff drop. Rear was 3" bastard flexy pack leaves, 2" extended shackles (so 1" height gain) and a 2" bodylift all around. Topped off with lokka up front and shimed LSD. Put in a heap of my own R&D to get it working the way I wanted, and many weekends spent doing trial/error stuff whilst pushing the RTI numbers higher and higher.

Started off with 338RTI up front and 409RTI for the rear. So total of 797. After all the work I put into it, ended up with 614RTI front, 629RTI rear - total 1243!
Could have went more again from the rear, however wanted to keep both front and rear numbers close enough to not pork the on road handling - something that can happen if you have too much flex in the front/rear and not enough at the other end to match.

ANYWAYS - Now that I have a new 4x4, I would still prefer to buy custom - but still off the shelf to some degree
Also no plans on going stupid with it like my last 4x4, but I still want enough to keep me happy - and some. The Triton height from standard is nice, TBH I don't even think I need a 2" lift - BUT what I do want is a much bigger range of motion than what I have now. With all of the research I have done thus far, achieving this will require some degree of lift (roughly 2" or so) to still be able to nab off shelf gear.

Oh, and there is no way I can go and bend up some cromo steel to make up a decent 'bomb proof' set of UCA's, even if I wanted to

[macca002]

Re-Kon Front adjustable coilovers - $1495
Get the right spring rate and you can set to any height you want.

Yes they are a bit more expensive from an initial outlay, but replace your shocks once and these would be getting close to paying for themselves.

I am also pretty sure there is a chap on here with a custom single cab running them. Cant remember his name, so cant send him a PM to chime in.

Anyone?