DMS Rallyart piggyback

[subi_man]

brenze I was planning to dyno my CR plus vs. this DMS Ralliart piggyback but the dyno I was planning on using broke down and is (still!) being repaired

[brenze87]

yeah would be good to see how they compare. do you have a boost controller on yours subi? i wonder if they can adjust the boost pressure to match the cr plus with out a air/fuel meter?

[Storm Trooper]

Just some info for those people trying to make sense of the dyno graph

left margin reads kW and right margin read Nm (aka torque)

the solid line is power (kW) meaning read max or any rpm figure to the left margin

the dotted line is torque (Nm) meaning read max or any rpm figure to the right margin

hope this helps

[hicko]

I’ll go through the graph .
For some reason I never got the rear wheel print out in KWs just in hp, So to help with confusion
I will just go with one graph which is this one.

Now if we convert from hp to kws as Homer has help with the conversion .
1 hp is equal to .75kws
100hp equal s 75kws
50hp equals 37.5kws
So that means that 153hp is about 114kws at the rear wheels with the piggy back
And 130hp is 97.5kws at the rear wheel standard .
17 kw increase at wheels or 16.5% increase
Back to the testing , because of a miscommunication I didn’t realize that I had to have a manual boost controller fitted to get the full potential out of the Piggy back, and as a result there was a bit of over fuelling under full acceleration with black smoke. The boost never got above 14psi.
I have order a boost controlled and boost gauge and if all goes well I will install them this week end. Monster assures my that his testing has shown that with a manual boost controller that over fuelling will be turned into more horsepower. Once the controller is installed I will book in for another dyno to see if there is much change in the results. The trouble is that Rob Chapman has gone on holidays for a couple of weeks and he is the only one who does the dynoing .
The great thing about this setup is it can be switched on and off with a click of a button, which means that you can compare power differences in all situations,
With the standard tyre setup the power increase is very noticeable. Under hard acceleration there is no hesitation through the full rev range of all the gears. Compared to standard where there is noticeable turbo lag and at the top end revs the motor struggles to pulls up to the red line, once turned on the turbo lag all but disappears and it has no trouble pulling hard through all the lower gears right up to 4500rpms which is a couple of hundred more than standard.
My personal feeling is with the extra power and torque it is a real pleasure to drive.
More to come.
Hicko

[MonsterTriton]

thanks hicko
looking forward to it.

[Homer]

Hicko yours is a manual yes?
It is amazing how much HP your car has standard - significantly more than a standard petrol running an auto.

How about the torque numbers 454 Nm!!! That would pull a tractor backwards!

Also your standard torque numbers are high 360Nm as opposed to published 347Nm.

[subi_man]

I would put more emphasis on the comparison BETWEEN the two readings (with and without piggyback) rather than the actual numbers themselves - as dyno variance/calibration could be making the actual numbers higher (or lower)

[Homer]

Yeah mate, that's what I did pretty much as soon as I saw the stock standard readings seemed OTT.

I just thought it was worth asking a couple of questions as sometimes the clever people on here have a few little tricks for extra gains I've been out of the rev head engine performance circles for too long now.

[subi_man]

Me too mate, and even when I was in those circles, dyno numbers were often hotly debated - nothing much has changed

(My slightly warmed-over Forester produced 192 and 215 kw atw on different dynos without any changes in between the runs )

[Homer]

Geez 23 KW isn't just a bit off is it

It always surprises me with equipment that expensive, made to measure something that is relatively easy to measure can be so far out - or more likely unregulated

Any chance of your local dyno getting back up and running for a comparo on the two chips?

[Dylan 191]

Geez 23 KW isn't just a bit off is it

It always surprises me with equipment that expensive, made to measure something that is relatively easy to measure can be so far out - or more likely unregulated

Any chance of your local dyno getting back up and running for a comparo on the two chips?

its more likely to be operator error or lack of calibration
need a highly skilled person to do a good job , not just some young punk who puts his foot flat till it hits the limiter

[hicko]

[
It’s more likely to be operator error or lack of calibration
need a highly skilled person to do a good job , not just some young punk who puts his foot flat till it hits the limiter

Great comment this stuff makes the world go round. It's been a long time since I have been called a young PUNK and it would have been awhile since Rob Chapman has been called unskilled. His number is on the dyno chart so give him a ring. ( Oh but you will have to wait for a week or two because the old unskilled fellow has gone on holidays)
I’m 53 and 54 in a few days so thanks for the compliment Dylon.

Geez 23 KW isn't just a bit off is it

It always surprises me with equipment that expensive, made to measure something that is relatively easy to measure can be so far out - or more likely unregulated

Any chance of your local dyno getting back up and running for a comparo on the two chips?

I’ll be getting the Triton dynoed again with the boost controller fitted when Rob gets back so we can compare and see if there are any deference’s in the results.

Yeah mate, that's what I did pretty much as soon as I saw the stock standard readings seemed OTT.

I just thought it was worth asking a couple of questions as sometimes the clever people on here have a few little tricks for extra gains I've been out of the rev head engine performance circles for too long now.

You can ask away and I will answer as best as I can.

Hicko yours is a manual yes?
It is amazing how much HP your car has standard - significantly more than a standard petrol running an auto.

How about the torque numbers 454 Nm!!! That would pull a tractor backwards!

Also your standard torque numbers are high 360Nm as opposed to published 347Nm.

Yes it is a 5 speed manual And explain to me why the torque numbers are to high ( I am nearly 60 you know).

Yeah mate, that's what I did pretty much as soon as I saw the stock standard readings seemed OTT.

What is ‘OTT” Doh,


This is the first vehicle that I have owned that has been on the dyno so it is all new to me and if you blokes don’t want to hear how the rest of the testing goes that fine by me. I have nothing to gain or lose here, well that’s not right I have already lost $190 for the dyno and a tank of fuel testing and probably about another$200 for a boost controller and gauge. I thought I would put my hand up to test this and give an unbiased opinion on it, so that’s what I am doing. I am so impressed with the Piggy back I am going not buy it from Monster so the above expense is worth it for piece of mind. Dyno figures may be able to be tampered with and I’m sure they can. But these are straight of the dyno computer. And I haven’t seen any other dyno figures posted for a 3.2 Triton diesel yet, so my graph all bull until someone puts up the $190 to compare them.
I would like to hear from any members if they have had anything to do with Rob Chapman In Cooroy because I have been told by more than a couple of people that he is the guru of Diesel 4x4 tuning in the SE corner of QLD and that is why I took it to him. He tunes most of the Nissan and Toyota diesels that are raced at Land Cruiser Park. Because he has been called –unskilled-a punk and his equipment that expensive, made to measure something that is relatively easy to measure can be so far out - or more likely unregulated
Hicko

[mad992]

i think your doing a great job 4 us members hicko unbiased and not for profit , ive never heard of this bloke up cooroy way ,and im a young 43 yr old punk just like you bro go the sunny coast

[MonsterTriton]

hey gents,
Hicko is doing us all a huge favour, for me and for all you gents who want to know about my piggyback, but dont have the time/effort and dedication into trying it.
i thank you Hicko.
as for the dyno, next time i will ask hicko to tell me when he will go to the dyno so i can call and talk to the tuner himself to assure him of what sort of readings he will give out, and i will ask him to give us the general info, rpm, horsepower/ or kw and torque line. the power would either be at the wheels, or at the flywheel. but most importantly to take a dyno with chip switched off, and one with the dms switched on.

[MonsterTriton]

guys mind you these things take time to get good and near perfect results..

[Stu]

I would have thought that monstertriton would have covered the cost of the dyno?

[Dylan 191]

[
It’s more likely to be operator error or lack of calibration
need a highly skilled person to do a good job , not just some young punk who puts his foot flat till it hits the limiter

Great comment this stuff makes the world go round. It's been a long time since I have been called a young PUNK and it would have been awhile since Rob Chapman has been called unskilled. His number is on the dyno chart so give him a ring. ( Oh but you will have to wait for a week or two because the old unskilled fellow has gone on holidays)
I’m 53 and 54 in a few days so thanks for the compliment Dylon.

Geez 23 KW isn't just a bit off is it

It always surprises me with equipment that expensive, made to measure something that is relatively easy to measure can be so far out - or more likely unregulated

Any chance of your local dyno getting back up and running for a comparo on the two chips?

I’ll be getting the Triton dynoed again with the boost controller fitted when Rob gets back so we can compare and see if there are any deference’s in the results.

Yeah mate, that's what I did pretty much as soon as I saw the stock standard readings seemed OTT.

I just thought it was worth asking a couple of questions as sometimes the clever people on here have a few little tricks for extra gains I've been out of the rev head engine performance circles for too long now.

You can ask away and I will answer as best as I can.

Hicko yours is a manual yes?
It is amazing how much HP your car has standard - significantly more than a standard petrol running an auto.

How about the torque numbers 454 Nm!!! That would pull a tractor backwards!

Also your standard torque numbers are high 360Nm as opposed to published 347Nm.

Yes it is a 5 speed manual And explain to me why the torque numbers are to high ( I am nearly 60 you know).

Yeah mate, that's what I did pretty much as soon as I saw the stock standard readings seemed OTT.

What is ‘OTT” Doh,


This is the first vehicle that I have owned that has been on the dyno so it is all new to me and if you blokes don’t want to hear how the rest of the testing goes that fine by me. I have nothing to gain or lose here, well that’s not right I have already lost $190 for the dyno and a tank of fuel testing and probably about another$200 for a boost controller and gauge. I thought I would put my hand up to test this and give an unbiased opinion on it, so that’s what I am doing. I am so impressed with the Piggy back I am going not buy it from Monster so the above expense is worth it for piece of mind. Dyno figures may be able to be tampered with and I’m sure they can. But these are straight of the dyno computer. And I haven’t seen any other dyno figures posted for a 3.2 Triton diesel yet, so my graph all bull until someone puts up the $190 to compare them.
I would like to hear from any members if they have had anything to do with Rob Chapman In Cooroy because I have been told by more than a couple of people that he is the guru of Diesel 4x4 tuning in the SE corner of QLD and that is why I took it to him. He tunes most of the Nissan and Toyota diesels that are raced at Land Cruiser Park. Because he has been called –unskilled-a punk and his equipment that expensive, made to measure something that is relatively easy to measure can be so far out - or more likely unregulated
Hicko

wooaah settle down mate im not havn a go at ya i dont know you or your dyno guy i was mearly saying that that is what you dont want to happen , NOT that this was the case with you
so dont read too much into the post ok !!!!

[Homer]

Hey Hicko I apologise if it sounded like I was bagging you out mate. I can assure you 100% that is not the case - writing on forums can really muck up the intent of the conversation sometimes and this is one of them.
I am a 44 year old punk meself though you wouldn't know it to look at me....I look about 50

I am just really interested in this. Some guys like tyres and departure angles, I like engines. I was trying to enter into healthy debate on the virtues and numbers so any and all questions come out that may want or need to be asked. Almost every thread on here has massive details missing that sometimes causes disparaging sounding comments - take the tyres thread 'factory donuts' for example - most hated them, some liked them and there were 100% different test results among members - and the only reason was because the posters never posted any useable info on their tyre - until someone asked the question - and it was found there were two types!- and not only that, at least two different criteria - road and off road which was often not alluded to in the critique - just comments like "they're sh$t".

I believe I have heard of Rob Chapman, and I was also not making any derogatory remarks about his skill or intent either - and I 'think' dylan wasn't referring to you or Rob directly - just the number of young 'fast four and rotary' engine centres that have popped up all over the place with a dyno and selling sparkly bits for Hyundi's etc. It is much easier to sell components when your dyno reads high - I got 355 Kw out of an Imprezza with just this chip I sell etc.

I was referring to expensive equipment not reading something pretty easy to define when replying to Subi. He had the same car dyno'd at two places with a 23 Kw difference - or 13% which is huge considering that it is close to the total improvement we expect to see from most performance chips. My comment was I think 'regulation' of dyno's and their manufacture or calibration is poor meaning that the factors that one machine may read or weight heavily to come up with the numbers may not be the same factors that another machine does - sorta like weighing a person to see how fat they are or measuring body mass index (or whatever it is). The results could differ, so they should be regulated to stop this type of carry on - and I am one of the one's carrying on

The reason I said the numbers were OTT (over the top) is because the stock diesel is factory listed at 118KW and 347Nm at the flywheel or developed horsepower.
These published numbers are normally always overstated/on the high side anyway, and also once translated into brake horsepower become significantly less, except in the numbers I read above.

Your dyno figures show standard brake Kw numbers as 97Kw.

I would have expected a standard diesel to dyno at about 80Kw.

The petrol engine with 135Kw standard, dyno's at around 90-95Kw. Less than the numbers posted for the diesel.
Which means it loses 43Kw compared to factory developed Kw specs from the engine to back wheels and the diesel only loses 21Kw - less than half, when it runs virtually identical drivetrain etc.
This is a big discrepancy.
That is also why I was asking manual over auto as auto's drag a bit more Kw out of the drive train, but I didn't think it would be over 20Kw more than a manual.

That is also why Subi recomended and I was agreeing that we should sort of forget the actual numbers posted as the dyno's can vary, and concentrate on the improvement made as those figures should be consistent across the dyno's and weather conditions etc.

I also made an error on my conversion of the torque numbers. It doesn't list wat type of lb's it is measuring so can't cross it back to Nm.

If possible, it may be worthwhile (totally up to you of course) getting all the figures in Kw and Nm to avoid discrepancy. I'm an old HP man, but the manufacturers all list metric now and the torque thing screws with my head.

Anyway I am looking forward to seeing all the numbers and hearing about all the racing trucks around the place, as I am sure a lot of people on here are too, as it's all good and interesting performance talk

[ML-VR08]

Rob Chapman has dynod 5 of my mates cars these range from V8 Turbo Landcruisers and Navaras plus a few poooootrols... He really does know his stuff...and i will be going to Rob when i decide on what i wanna do with my truck. Thanks for your time Hicko...its great that you put your had up.

[MonsterTriton]

thanks hicko for all your help.
i think we are looking forward to the next dyno results,
in just KW and NM of torque will do, with rpm and the comparisement with it switched off and switched on.
if you can ask him to make the std run in dotted lines, and my chip run in solid line, that way it will be very easy to see the difference,
rather then getting confused with color coding etc etc.

btw gents, Mr Hicko and I already agreed i would reinburst him, when all testing is completed
it make no sense for me to make dozens of international transfer every few days....

i have to say i really appreicate Mr Hicko time and effort and dedication to getting this done.

[Dylan 191]

I believe I have heard of Rob Chapman, and I was also not making any derogatory remarks about his skill or intent either - and I 'think' dylan wasn't referring to you or Rob directly - just the number of young 'fast four and rotary' engine centres that have popped up all over the place with a dyno and selling sparkly bits for Hyundi's etc. It is much easier to sell components when your dyno reads high - I got 355 Kw out of an Imprezza with just this chip I sell etc.

thats what i meant .... thanks for getn the words outa my head homer

[hicko]

Thanks for the support and all the replies.
Now that we have cleared the air and we are all on the same page, here are a few comments that Rob Chapman said to me before he put the Triton on the dyno.
He stated that he had not had any new Tritons on the dyno to date but he had done a few 3.2 D.I.D Pajeros and they dyno at 130hp or 97 plus kws at the rear wheels, which was exactly what mine did. He also said ( for interest only) that new 3lt Nissan Patrol only read about 105 hp at the rear wheels and with a DP chip installed which he sells, only brings them up to 130hp at the rear wheels. ( He has not installed any DP chips in 3.2 diesel yet.) These are his comments not mine.
Now all we need is to get other Tritons in the dyno that have been chipped or not to see what there rear wheel standard hp is.

[Homer]

Yeah mate but more importantly, how good is the bit of kit you got?
Are you driving it around under normal conditions?
Do you notice much less throttle position to drive the same as before?
Beside the smoking are there any issues, warning lights, rattle increase/decrease?
Have you towed with it?
How many luxes have you blown away?

Come on spill the beans.

[hicko]

I installed a manual boost controller “MBC” late on Sunday afternoon and also a turbo boost gauge. All went well for the first hour, as I increased the boost about a quarter turn at a time with the MBC The power increase was noticeable and the black smoke started to disappear as the turbo boost increased. With the DMS turned off the boost never gets over 14psi with a spike and sits around 12psi under load. When the DMS was turned on I wasn’t game enough to turn the MBC passed 18 psi on the gauge which spiked at 20psi and levelled at 18psi. At this level the smoke has reduced significantly, But not totally stop. Once I get it back on the dyno this should show what the ideal boost level should be.
After the first hour I decided to push the Triton up a very steep hill to see how it would pull. Half way up the hill, bang, shut down’ limp home mood and engine light on.
I lifted the bonnet and with a torch (it was dark by now) I discovered that the line had come off the tee fitting to the gauge. I hadn’t fitted it correctly. I disconnected the boost gauge tee and turned DMS off and the Triton started again but the engine check light stayed on. Next morning I started the motor again and the engine check light was off. I turned the DMS on again and during the day increased the boost until it was where it was the night before (same number of turn on the MBC). I have run with the DMS on and the MBC set at 18psi since then,(I reconnected the tee for the boost gauge and hooked it back up) 500kms to date and all is fine. The power is great and acceleration in second and third gears around town is awesome, 80kms and up 5th gear is a pleasure to say the least.
Fuel economy has changed as well. Because I travel many kms a day I can keep a good eye on that as well. My Triton has shown an average fuel usage of 10.5lts per 100kms on the onboard computer for ages and that doesn’t seem to matter how many times I reset it. After a full tank of fuel that’s where it ends up give or take a bit. That equals out to between 750 and 780kms per tank which means that the onboard computer is not accurate. With the DMS turned on ,it is reading 9.5 to 10 lts per 100kms. Now that it is set up with the MBC and I can’t get to the dyno for awhile I will be able to run a few tanks of fuel through, so I will be able to get a more accurate read on that.
I don’t want to do any towing test as of yet until I get the dyno done, mainly so I can get exhaust temps under load.
Another thing that I have done is order an engine monitor off Monstertriton ,which is similar to the scanguage 11, but it’s just made for the Triton . I am not very happy with the OME onboard computer as it is not that accurate.
By the way if anyone is coming to the Sunshine coast over Easter or lives here and would like to take my Triton for a quick run (not an hours test drive) just pm me as I am going nowhere for Easter and you can see how it goes and give us your opinion on it.
Hicko

[rick]

good post mate...... i may be investing along with a 3" exhaust.